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Author Topic: Aptus 22/75 r P25 on a 501cm: Thoughts?  (Read 2998 times)
TMARK
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« on: October 20, 2012, 11:22:05 AM »
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Any experience with a back on a 500 series Blad?  I know the files from these backs very well, shot with RZ/Mamiya AFd and Hassi H, my main concern is how a 500 series gets on with a back.  I don't mind a sync cable, my concern is the mirror slap and focus.  I have a PM45, which is awesome, and Acute Matte D grided/split prism.

I ask because I love my Aptus 75s on my RZ, sort of, its just the RZ is a bit bulky for more casual shooting, but I can hand hold it to 1/30 without a problem.  I want a smaller, more portable package, and I have this wonderful Blad system that I've limited to film. 

I was thinking about this because someone wants to buy my Aptus 75s/RZ, and the studio at work will allow me to use the D800e anytime I need it, so I might sell the one I bought for myself, along with some extra Canon lenses.

My impression is that a 22mp back is best on a Blad, at least this is what I've been told in the past, due to shake from the mirror.

Again, I know all about the files.  I had a 54s, have a 75s, had a P30+, and have rented just about everything else out there, as of 2007.

Thanks!
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FredBGG
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 11:50:21 AM »
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Mirror slap may be a bit of an issue as vibration tends to increase on older cameras.
It can be serviced to improve damping.

Regarding focus the accute screen is quite good, but you could also look into
getting a Beattie screen. It's brighter and contrastier. Several other options out there for focusing screens too.

There is also a very neat chimmy style focusing hood that has a movable loup.
It has a mechnism that keeps the lop at the right tunnable hight over the screen and lets you move it around
to check focus better when what you are focusing on is not in the center of the screen.

They are rare, but sometimes pop up on ebay. Very nice for critical focusing.

Regarding the digital backs on the CM500 you may have to do two shots or get a wakeup cable.

You could also give Keith at http://www.kapturegroup.com a call. He makes all sorts of gadgets to optimize using digital backs on older Hasselblads.

I know he makes a one shot cable for Hasselblad 200 series cameras.

The Hasselblad lenses are upto the task IQ wise.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 11:53:51 AM »
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The most important part of your post was that you've used these backs on an RZ and find the slap and focusing acceptable on that platform.

As that as the point of comparison I find concerns over mirror slap on the 500 series a bit on the over zealous side.

I think it's safe to say that if you're okay with your RZ mirror slap I that you'll be fine with the slap on the 500 series. If you go to 33mp you may need a half stop* shutter speed faster to get the same sharp detail at 100%, but if you are hit with a bit of mirror slap motion at 33mp you can always down rez the file to 22mp at time of processing and have the same detail you would have had with a 22mp back.

Likewise focus can be a bit challenging, but if you're okay with focusing your RZ then I suspect you'll be okay focusing a 500 series.

None of this is to say that you should use a 33mp rather than 22mp - just that the mirror slap shouldn't influence that decision much. Decide on resolution based on the other facts you've worked with in the past: ability to print large, crop, avoid moire, slower/longer processing times, storage requirements, budget, etc.

There are several places here in NYC, including of course ours, that would be glad to show you such a combination and let you walk around for some relevant experience/testing for free, or rent for a day/week/weekend with the rental cost counted towards purchase if it works for you.

Internet advice, as you well know, only goes so far - for instance there are very few people on this forum that would advise you to use 1/30th hand held on an RZ, but if it works for you then by definition it works for you.

*The half-stop is theoretical - of course on a Hassy you're usually relegated to adjustments in full stops.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 11:56:36 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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TMARK
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 12:31:17 PM »
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Thanks for the info Fred and Doug.

Doug, its the weekend, get some sleep!

I should add that I assisted a nice lady who used 503cw with a Sinar 54m.  Her shots were very elaborate, always tripod, always mirror up, tons 'o' grip time and set dressing.  We used the chimney finder and the PM45.  Screens were Acute Matte D and Beattie.  Rarely missed focus, but again, we were shooting as if it were a 4x5 camera. 

So my concern is handheld, and what I'm envisioning is for personal use only.  Resolution isn't that important, its really the look of the lenses, and because I like using the camera.  I don't think the V mount Phase backs needed a wakeup cable, and I know the Leaf backs don't either.  Sync cables, of course.

The CFV backs are out of the question because they don't rotate and are not mountable in the vertical position.

Doug, next time I'm in NYC I'll drop by.  Lance is at DT as well?
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yaya
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 12:36:44 PM »
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Regarding the digital backs on the CM500 you may have to do two shots or get a wakeup cable
500 series doesn't require any special cabling arrangment. Aptus back do not require waking up regardless of the platform used
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TMARK
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2012, 01:14:19 PM »
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Doug,

1/30th on the Rz is a 20% hit rate. Here is how I do it:  brace my body against a wall, use the left hand grip, camera cradled but not too tight, release on the exhale. Don't move or breath again until everything stops moving. Just like shooting a gun. Works better with film. I mainly use 1/125 with the 110. With the blad and film, 1/60 is OK.

T
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tom_l
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2012, 01:22:56 PM »
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I used the 503cw with a P22, now a IQ160.

80% on a tripod, 20% hand-held. Yes, one-shot mode is possible with the normal cable between back and lens.
I use mirror-up, whenever I can, yes.
With the CW, 1/125 and up seems usable to me, even without the mirror-up. 1/60 is not for me.
The trick is to find out how to use mirror-up handheld, I have my right hand on the Winder, the left hand below to camera, so that I can push the nirror-up button from below. (I hope you see what I mean). This works for my kind of work, but probably not possible for fashion and portrait photography.


Tom
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FredBGG
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 01:45:43 PM »
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500 series doesn't require any special cabling arrangment. Aptus back do not require waking up regardless of the platform used

Nice. Does the back get the wake up call by mechanical coupling with the film advance mechanism like with the Credo V backs?
Do you need to crank the camera (cock the shutter and lower the mirror) right or quite soon before shooting or can you walk around
with the camera ready cranked?
Does it still need a sync cable to the back for the shutter speed info?

Does shooting mirror up change things as far as zero latency goes?
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yaya
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 02:15:06 PM »
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Nice. Does the back get the wake up call by mechanical coupling with the film advance mechanism like with the Credo V backs?
Aptus doesn't need a wake-up call, it gets the signal from the lens
Quote
Do you need to crank the camera (cock the shutter and lower the mirror) right or quite soon before shooting or can you walk around
with the camera ready cranked?
Doesn't matter
Quote
Does it still need a sync cable to the back for the shutter speed info?
It needs the cable for the signal
Quote
Does shooting mirror up change things as far as zero latency goes?
No latency settings on the Aptus
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FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2012, 03:22:50 PM »
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my last question was not worded right.
What i meant to ask is there any issue with shooting mirror up?

Does the back stay woken up all the time when turned on with Hasselblad 500 series cameras?


Do these two "communicate" in any way?



« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 03:52:45 PM by FredBGG » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 04:08:38 AM »
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and have rented just about everything else out there, as of 2007.



Hey T,

Not to take this off topic, but I'm more and more amazed at how C-1 has changed the character of our legacy p30+ and p21+ backs.

We shot all week, tethered with the contax and p30+ and had one crash after a gazillion frames and though it was studio work, the cameras went from static to moving to handheld and same with the subject from portrait still, to leaping and running.

Anyway, the colors of C-1 the last few generations have transformed my cameras and with a little pre production adjustment in the software, we can show the client almost exactly the look they're going to see.

The skintones have experienced remarkable changes.

My point is the older legacy cameras are more viable today, than they were when bought new.

Now as I too often mention I love the Contax's but a few things about them still kind of blow me away, but overall having a digital interface on an analog type of camera is very cool.

So I can understand your decision to go to a V.  Something is very nice about these old cameras and it's kind of the best of both worlds, an analog camera with digitlal "film".

IMO

BC
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amsp
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 08:27:12 AM »
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I agree with the above statement, I loved my P25 when I got it back in 2007, and it's only gotten better over the years thanks to the evolution of the C1 software.
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LenR
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 10:54:15 AM »
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I've been shooting Leaf digital on V's since 1991 with no complaints.
On the 500 locking up the mirror is effortless.
The back responds to the shutter, not the mirror, so locking up the mirror is not an issue.
The 500 is also much more svelt than the RZ. 
I should mention that all of what I use it for is on a tripod or camera stand.
For hand held work I use a DSLR.
 
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TMARK
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« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 12:18:54 PM »
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I've had this 501cm for a long time, but never used it commercially because cropping to 4:3 seemed such a waste.  I have a A16V back, which is a vertical 645 back, but if was going to shoot 645, I thought the Mamiya AFd was a better choice at the time (2004).

Yes, C1 and LR4 have really changed the game with the older files.  I was never a BIG fan of the P25 compared to the Aptus 22 in terms of IQ.  I think C1.6.X and LR4 really do a nice job on P25 files, and all of the older files.  Same with Leica files, especially the M8. 

I really do love the PM45 and the Acute D screen.  Great magnification, bright, awesome.  One of the best finders I've used.  At least with film its just an ideal experience, keeps me in image rather than anything else.  I was shooting some pics of my daughter with the 150mm.  Not only was it the most fun I've had shooting, the negs are fantastic.  Exactly what I saw when I released the shutter, but in B&W.  I do love the RZ, but its a bit on the large side for casual use.

T



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Anders_HK
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2012, 01:32:25 PM »
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+1 on C1 improving old files. The big step to me was when C1 accepted Leaf files and C1 Pro has really improved in tools over last few years, allowing me to think photographic during all adjustments Grin

... its just an ideal experience, keeps me in image rather than anything else. 

+1 the other important  Smiley. I looked hard at Hassy V for joy of viewing and joy of shooting. In end went with Hy6 which mere feels as modern V version. Love the 6x6 WLFs for way of work and view Grin
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2012, 07:57:31 PM »
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Aptus 22 is base ISO 25 vs. Aptus 75 that is base ISO 50, but I guess you know...both good backs, Aptus 75 is one generation newer. There is also Aptus 65 with same sensor as (and cheaper than) Aptus 75 since is cropped sensor, but due 44x33mm sensor perhaps not desired on 6x6 ?
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amsp
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 03:38:20 AM »
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I bought a mint 501cm about a year ago and have been using it with mostly Portra 400 & Tmax 400, the results are absolutely stunning. It actually made me loose any interest in getting a DB for it, the look of film is just so damn sexy and the new formulations from Kodak are great. Like you I was hesitant to crop in the beginning, but then I got over it. Having some choice in cropping after the moment of capture can be a good thing sometimes, and the look of those Zeiss lenses is well worth it. I feel very lucky to be able to choose between my P25 on the Mamiya and the Hassy with film, it's the best of two worlds for sure.
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TMARK
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 08:25:09 AM »
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I bought a mint 501cm about a year ago and have been using it with mostly Portra 400 & Tmax 400, the results are absolutely stunning. It actually made me loose any interest in getting a DB for it, the look of film is just so damn sexy and the new formulations from Kodak are great. Like you I was hesitant to crop in the beginning, but then I got over it. Having some choice in cropping after the moment of capture can be a good thing sometimes, and the look of those Zeiss lenses is well worth it. I feel very lucky to be able to choose between my P25 on the Mamiya and the Hassy with film, it's the best of two worlds for sure.

I'm with you!  I have this reflex to compose with the entire frame.  I got the 501cm to shoot CD covers, but ended up using a 6x6 back on the RZ.  I love the RZ lenses, but the Zeiss Blad lenses have a different charachter to them.  More bite.  The ISO 400 Kodak films are really stunning.  When I would shoot stils alongside motion I would advocate for shooting film, because even pushed a stop I liked the results better than MFDB shot at 800.  LR4 and C1 6XX somewhat change that equation, as they seem to make a nicer 800iso file that the older versions.

Back in the day I liked the Aptus 22 with LC V8 more than the P25 with C1 3.x in terms of IQ, but the Aptus had that long boot up period. 

Its funny, now that I'm not shooting for a living photography can be fun again!  I'm standardizing on the Blad, film and probably digital, and the D800e.  I was all Gung Ho for the new M, but the more I think about it, I think I'll wait a year or so to look at Leica again. 

Thanks fr teh suggestions everyone.  I'll come see Doug in February and see what can be had.

T
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KLaban
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 09:06:01 AM »
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I was all Gung Ho for the new M, but the more I think about it, I think I'll wait a year or so to look at Leica again.  

The new M is still on my radar. The addition of Live-View and the EVF has transformed the M into a very versatile machine. Really, the announcement pretty much covered my wish list. I'm waiting to see if the CMOS sensor can replicate the look of the CCD files. There's a possibility that I might even ditch MFD.

Time will tell.  
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 11:51:58 AM »
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... the look of film is just so damn sexy and the new formulations from Kodak are great.

Stop it!!! This is bad for us who given up film, makes tempted to shoot it again Grin
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