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Author Topic: Phase One High Speed flash sync. 1/1600  (Read 28927 times)
FredBGG
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« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2012, 08:23:55 PM »
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Seems to me the that this problem had been solved years ago for use with flash bulbs with focal plane shutters.
Speed Graphics, early Nikon F's and Pentax etc had M and FP sync settings (as well as X) for longer burning flash bulbs that triggered before the 1st blind opened.
If you wanted to get the same effect now without using PocketWizards it would probably quite simple for your Canon / Nikon's to program the cameras with firmware (if the was seen to be a need) so that flash sync was triggered before 1st blind opened - as a custom menu option ? All that would then be needed is a flash unit that with a flash duration that is quite slow (say longer than 1/200th sec) to achieve a fully exposed frame with a focal plane shutter on a high speed setting.

All you need to do to get the Nikon to go to FP sync is to put a high speed sync speedlight flash on the camera. You can set it to manual at 128th power and just use it to trigger the the strobes, either with a flash slave and cable or flash slave and wireless transmitter for convenience.


Currently the D800 and other FP capable Nikons only have it as an auto setting when an FP capable flash or commander is attached.

The Pocket wizard Flextt5 can be set to tell the the d800 to fire in FP mode without an FP capable Nikon flash connected. It also has the advantage of having some timing adjustments so as to fine tune the fastest shutter speeds.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 09:01:06 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2012, 09:46:13 PM »
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Some interesting work here too....

Speed lights high speed sync motocross shoot.

http://youtu.be/xNDAINwhTWU

Look how in the video footage the bikers are dark silhouettes furring the jumps at the end of the video.

Here he is shooting surfers with a long lens.

http://youtu.be/cP6a47BQA70
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2012, 09:33:39 AM »
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pfff
I've shot up to 1/4000 with the Fuji X10 and a Ranger Quadra....... so what.

The TT5/TT1 system seems to work fine unless you dive into the theory behind it.... you can ONLY get that speed with the slower strobes like the S heads or D-lites (within the Elinchrom system), as soon as you use the faster strobes it doesn't work, it will top out at app 1/320 on the 5DMKII for example.

In the end however it doesn't matter.
Just make images.

I'm shooting Fuji, Sony (A99), Phase One DF/Leaf and I'm more than happy with all of them and I don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says, I just love all my cameras in certain situations....Learn how to use it and when and you will know the tools.
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2012, 12:23:14 PM »
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... and I'm more than happy with all of them and I don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says, I just love all my cameras in certain situations....Learn how to use it and when and you will know the tools.

Exactly!
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2012, 12:29:42 PM »
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pfff

.....Phase One DF/Leaf and I'm more than happy with all of them and I don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says....


You don't give a sh*t about what their advertising says.....  Your words not mine...

However you do work closely with and for Leaf:
Quotes from your website:

Quote
Frank works closely together with Elinchrom, Leaf and Epson and is promoting their products on exhibitions and in specialized workshops.

Quote
Frank has also been involved in several advertising campaigns for Elinchrom, Leaf and recently Sym which are run in several countries worldwide.

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FredBGG
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« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2012, 01:00:16 PM »
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I still maintain that this thread belongs to a different section....

In the video the OP refers to, the photographer states more than once that he is using the system so that he can achieve a shallow DOF while somewhat controlling the ambient sun light. He is not talking about freezing motion.

This is easily done with the system he shoots on and NOT so easily done with 35mm. The samples shown by the OP are not what we can call shallow DOF images.

He says it's impossible to do so with a DSLR.
It is totally possible with a 35mm DSLR and the right technique. Actually you can achieve shallower depth of field and high speed sync with a 35mm DSLR because you can reach faster shutter speeds and you are not limited to 1/1600th. 1/8000th of a second is achievable with the D800. Also due to the way things work with high speed sync on a DSLR
more flash power is lost as the shutter speed increases. This actually helps towards shooting flash at with very wide apertures.

And here is is being done at f2.8 and 1/8000th with Broncolor studio strobes.

http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 01:17:29 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2012, 01:34:56 PM »
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The TT5/TT1 system seems to work fine unless you dive into the theory behind it.... you can ONLY get that speed with the slower strobes like the S heads or D-lites (within the Elinchrom system), as soon as you use the faster strobes it doesn't work, it will top out at app 1/320 on the 5DMKII for example.

The TT5/TT1 is not really doing anything particularly special. What it is doing is telling the camera to go into FP flash sync timing. This makes the cameras sync go off before the second curtain starts to move. All that is required for this to work is a flash speed that is sufficiently long to still be illuminating the sensor until the second curtain fully closes.
There are many many studio flash heads that have sufficiently long flash duration's. They also don't have to be that long. a flash duration of 1/400th is slow enough.
It is also important to note that despite requiring a slightly longer flash duration the effective exposure will be that of the shutter setting and motion will be freezed accordingly.
This will produce better freezing of motion with a DSLR at 1/8000th than the top limit of 1/1600th. With very fast movement this will produce a sharper photo.

It's also important to point out that using the Pocket Wizard TT5 is only one of the methods available for high speed sync on a 35mm DSLR.

It can be done using an on camera Auto FP capable flash used to trigger a flash slave (flash photo cell about $8) connected to a studio strobe with a sync cord.
The on camera flash can be set to manual at 1/128th of a second and pointed away from the subject or covered so as not to expose the subject. The on camera flash is only used to expose the flash slave and make the camera go into Auto FP.

Regarding auto FP... I have discussed the possibility of  adding a manual FP setting to the menu on Nikon auto FP capable cameras with Nikon.
It is possible and if they get enough requests it will be added. At this point all you will have to do is connect the camera to your strobes with a sync cable.

What is also very important to point out is that the high speed sync ability of the Phase One DF and Mamiya DF is limited to a relatively small range of leaf shutter lenses.

With 35mm high speed sync methods you can use any lens.

While some photographers may need to buy a different flash head for their studio strobes it is going to be far less expensive than buying a Phase One System which is what Phase One leads you to believe.

Leaf Credo 40MP Digital SLR Camera Kit with 80mm f/2.8 LS D Lens $ 26,095.00

Adding an S head to an Elinchrom setup..... I picked up a mint S head for under $200 to add to the 12 I already have.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:48:42 PM by FredBGG » Logged
alan_b
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« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2012, 02:53:18 PM »
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It may actually not be necessary to use a flash slave. It's possible that when a speedlight with FP is put on the camera that the cameras PC connector will trigger for FP.

I can confirm this works - it's how I usually do it.  Put an SB800 set to FP on the camera, connect a PW or other radio trigger to the camera PC port and fire away.

I just did a quick test, 1/8000s f/2 with & without FP mode.  (Note, the SB800 is not contributing to the exposure - it's only function is to trigger FP sync mode.)

She's sitting in direct sun coming from behind.  First shot is in FP mode, with a studio strobe hitting her from opposite the sun.  Second shot is with standard sync, only the sunlight is showing since the flash doesn't hit the sensor.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 03:14:30 PM by alan_b » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2012, 03:16:23 PM »
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Thanks for the confirmation Alan.

Also Pixel makes a wireless trigger called the Pixel King. It's capable of Auto FP and a pair of them cost about $ 175.
If someone does not need the wireless part they can use a single Pixel King and a wire sync cord. The pixel king would just be a lightwieght
way of getting the camera into Auto FP mode. A manual FP menu setting would be even lighter Wink

Also if someone does not need the top of the line SB-800 or SB-910 they can use an SB-600. Also the smaller SU-800 commander should do the job.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2012, 08:56:50 PM »
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Why do you keep thinking I'm sponsored to say good things ?
I'm maybe very simplistic in my approach, I look at what the system can do for me and I base my decision on that, it's a known fact that adds never are 100% true..... Or do you really think that all other brands are 100% true in their adds ?

Also to reach the speeds on a DSLR you need an extra device (it's not a system solution) plus its not the same as what a MF with leaf shutters does. So I fact they are right. It's just how you read it, and as mentioned before I never read adds when you're spending this kind of money you should be smart and get a good dealer and decide what counts for you.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2012, 10:06:38 PM »
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Why do you keep thinking I'm sponsored to say good things ?


Where did I say that?

I simply pointed out that it is a bit unusual that you say you don't give sh*t about what they say in their ads when you are involved in them.

Quotes from your website:

Quote
Frank works closely together with Elinchrom, Leaf and Epson and is promoting their products on exhibitions and in specialized workshops.

Quote
Frank has also been involved in several advertising campaigns for Elinchrom, Leaf and recently Sym which are run in several countries worldwide.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 10:08:40 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2012, 06:17:19 AM »
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As mentioned before I will just investigate the system myself and buy what I think works for me.
If I would believe the adds I would be the best photographer in the world, because that's what some brands promise Cheesy
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FredBGG
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« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2012, 10:58:26 AM »
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Also to reach the speeds on a DSLR you need an extra device (it's not a system solution)

Absolutely not true. An extra non system device is not needed for the D800. All you need to do is put a Nikon system flash
on the camera to put the camera into Auto FP mode and plug a sync cable or wireless trigger into the cameras PC port.

Also if we are talking about system integrated solutions Phase One / Leaf have nothing that comes close to the Nikon or Canon Speed light systems.
Totally system integrated flashes. Joe McNally's work with the Nikon CLS is a damn good example.
Control the flash setting right on camera. Soon this control will be able to be done through the camera using an tablet or smart phone.
This can also be done with a Nikon SU-800 commander.

http://vimeo.com/31363352

While I have a vast Elinchrom Studio Flash system I also use the Nikon CLS system and previously the Canon Speedlight system.

With my Elinchrom AS 3000 packs with the IR remote I can fine tune my lighting ratios right from behind the camera.
I like the ability to do that right on the camera with the Nikon Speedlight system. That is system integration... and all in a small bag.




« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 11:51:18 AM by FredBGG » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2012, 11:52:28 AM »
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There are three type of photographers that do endorsements.

1.  The most visible are the ones that look for endorsements first, then try or use the project depending on what the endorsements pay.  That's there main business model and if it works for them then that's the purpose of a free market.

2.  The next are photographers that actually have used the equipment, but will only use it full time if for paid endorsements and or given or loaned the equipment for further long term use.

3.  The last and probably most informative are the photographers that buy and use the equipment first and then are asked to do endorsements based on their work with the equipment.

Without knowing all the specifics Frank seems to fall into the last group, which is much easier to take and more valid to believe.

Now whether anyone believes endorsements or not is their business and like any high priced item everyone should try before they buy, or at least do some serious research before they buy.

____________________________________________

It doesn't move me an inch if someone  endorses something or not.  I base all my buying decisions on my use, sometimes I'm right, sometimes I have to make changes, but that's the way of life.

When I bought my Red cameras I never cared if Peter Jackson used them.  I needed a deep raw file for multi cam projects and RED was the only option.

When I bought my Nikons there were not a reflection on my Canons as I use the cameras in different projects, same for my phase backs, same for my contax, same for my next camera purchase, whether that be an H5d or a Canon 1dx.

They are all very different devices that do very different things and though I might someday buy a D800 (at least I will eventually test one next year if my schedule permits), I doubt seriously if I will use them to replace my current cameras.

____________________________________________

Bottom line is I know about 20 good photographers and none of them use exactly the same equipment combinations including cameras, lenses, lights, supports etc.

They use what works for them, they use what works for the project, but most of them test first, buy second.

_____________________________________________

Second bottom line is to find a good dealer.  Sure you can shop around and sometimes save what looks like substantial money, but in the long term, you'll nearly always pay more, because when any issue arrives you're on your on.

Also working without a dealer really doesn't build relationships or equity.  Personal equity is the key to successful business, whether your the client or the supplier.

_____________________________________________

I'll summarize this by saying that if you work a number of years, you'll always have some issues with equipment and/or suppliers.  It happens and there are two ways to deal with it.

Find a positive solution and move forward, or stay in the past and continue to diss a brand or product which really doesn't make anyone any money or move anyone's work forward.

Never discount positive equity.

______________________________________________

Everyone shoots and works differently but freezing motion can come in a lot of ways.

This image was frozen at 1/90th of a second with a Cotnax and Phase back, by just tracking with the subject.



This image was purposely shot at slower shutter speed to accentuate speed.



There are more than one way to work.




IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 12:20:31 PM by bcooter » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2012, 12:20:05 PM »
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_____________________________________________

Second bottom line is to find a good dealer.  Sure you can shop around and sometimes save what looks like substantial money, but in the long term, you'll nearly always pay more, because when any issue arrives you're on your on.

Also working without a dealer really doesn't build relationships or equity.  Personal equity is the key to successful business, whether your the client or the supplier.

_____________________________________________

I'll summarize this by saying that if you work a number of years, you'll always have some issues with equipment and/or suppliers.  It happens and there are two ways to deal with it.

Find a positive solution and move forward, or stay in the past and continue to diss a brand or product which really doesn't make anyone any money or move anyone's anyone forward.

Never discount positive equity.


IMO

BC

I do not discount positive equity at all. The difference is that I place my "allegiance" (for lack of a better word) is more with photographers and not manufacturers that peddle misinformation or try to get new photographers to buy into their marketing BS.... like the myth that you need MF digital and other big guns to be taken seriously.
Like this bullshit from Hasselblad....

Quote
There is never any time like the present to start building for the future. And if you think 35mm is good enough for this stage of your career, then you’d better hope that your clients are also willing to settle for “good enough”. The best clients, however, are almost never willing to settle for “good enough”. And why should they, when there are photographers out there who can provide the best? And providing the best is what Hasselblad and the new H5D are all about

Or Phase One featuring a video on their home page claiming that high speed flash sync is IMPOSSIBLE with a DSLR.

Regarding the Hasselblad statement it is really interesting when this is what a comparison between a top DSLR and a Hasselblad looks like.






both are crops from this framing:


Credit www.photigy.com

One is 35mm DSLR and one is MF digital.

 

Personally I find the equity and relationship I build with photographers through sharing knowledge far more fruitful from both a business standpoint and a know how standpoint
than dealer relationships.

I also prefer to work with equipment that comes from companies that don't work behind a dealer smoke screen.
Both Nikon and Canon have excellent professorial services setups. Their gear is stable and not buggy. I do not need a dealer/shrink/life coach/which doctor to keep things running smoothly.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 12:39:58 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2012, 12:36:39 PM »
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There are more than one way to work.
IMO

BC

Exactly the whole point of this thread.

The video says it is impossible to do hi speed sync with a DSLR, Phase One even features this video on their home page.

But the truth is not that.

There are more ways to work.

Oh and on a lighter note there is this:

http://youtu.be/O9xRhwmHBBE
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 12:42:31 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2012, 03:23:16 AM »
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I can confirm this works - it's how I usually do it.  Put an SB800 set to FP on the camera, connect a PW or other radio trigger to the camera PC port and fire away.

I just did a quick test, 1/8000s f/2 with & without FP mode.  (Note, the SB800 is not contributing to the exposure - it's only function is to trigger FP sync mode.)

She's sitting in direct sun coming from behind.  First shot is in FP mode, with a studio strobe hitting her from opposite the sun.  Second shot is with standard sync, only the sunlight is showing since the flash doesn't hit the sensor.

I just did a test similar to this.

Flash Elinchrom 6,000 w/s pack.

Elinchrom  X 6000 N double tube flash head.

SB-910 set to manual at 1/128th power covered just on the camera to activate Auto FP mode.

Nikon D800 connected via a flash sync cable to the Elinchrom flash pack.

So I can give this some more accurate numbers I did a test with the D800 and Elinchrom strobes.
Here is the setup
Flash Elinchrom 6,000 w/s pack.
Elinchrom X 6000 N double tube flash head.
SB-910 set to manual at 1/128th power covered just on the camera to activate Auto FP mode.
Nikon D800 connected via a flash sync cable to the Elinchrom flash pack.

The result is even exposure over the full frame at all flash pack power setting with no color shift.
I tested all shutter speeds from 1/320 all the way to 1/8000th
Flash pack power setting from 1/16th to full power.
To get an idea of flexibility with the head at 20ft I could shoot correct exposure at 1/1600th at f16 all the way to 1/8000th at f1.4
The fact that the focal plane shutter "wastes" flash power at high sync speeds actually gives range than working with the Phase One.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 04:47:51 AM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2012, 11:45:30 PM »
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I did a similar test.

Same setup, but with the Elinchron 3000 Micro AS. This is not an old flash system.
It's Elinchrom's top of the line fully asymmetric digitally controlled flash pack. It goes from 188w/s to 3000w/s total (as low as 64w/s if 3 heads are connected.

With the S-Head 1/1,600th has an aperture range from f3.5 to F16

With the S-Head 1/8,000th has an aperture range from f1.4 to F8

With the x 3000 N twin tube head using one tube 1/1,600th has an aperture of f2.8 at 188ws

With the x 3000 N twin tube head using one tube 1/8,000th has an aperture range of f1.4 to f8. However if I discharges the same 3,000 w/s total (2x 1,500) I could get F11
So I get an exposure change by simply adding the second tube. This is because it speeds up the flash duration putting more of the light into the shutter scan time.



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FredBGG
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« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2012, 11:49:23 PM »
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I also did a test with an A 3000 N. The high speed flash head.

With this head I could not get an even exposure over the whole frame.

However no area was completely dark. It may be possible to adjust this by using the timming adjustments with a Pocket wizard Flex TT%, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

How I have to order an couple more s-heads.
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bcooter
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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2012, 01:59:09 AM »
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\
I also prefer to work with equipment that comes from companies that don't work behind a dealer smoke screen.
Both Nikon and Canon have excellent professorial services setups. Their gear is stable and not buggy. I do not need a dealer/shrink/life coach/which doctor to keep things running smoothly.


It all depends on your experience.

I find my dealings with equipment to be 180 degrees from yours.

I've worked with manufacturers and dealers.

Steve Hendrix of CI is great, his company owner Dave Gallagher the same, Doug who moved to New York is incredibly knowledgable, Yair of Leaf more than beyond the call anytime i asked.

Each has their own specialty in talents, knowledge and product lines and all should be respected for what they offer online and even if they all have a positive view of the products they represent, that doesn't mean their not honest and know their product lines very well.

Now none of my dealings with anyone I've mentioned have always been huggy kissy as we all have strong personalities and opinions.  Regardless I still work with them, prove it with my purchases and recommendations and will continue to do so.

Consequently a few years ago with the dslr C brand I and many others had issues with overcooked processors dropping and corrupting files.  After working my way up the food chain, neither the big camera dealer I bought all of my 35mm digital bodies from, or the maker's professional service offered any resolve for months.  Actually the maker never really would admit there was a problem and finally came to the solution to slow down the camera preview.

Even with those issues I still purchase and own the C-brand because I don't believe in cutting off my nose to spite my face.

But . . . back to the dealers I mentioned.  Yes at times it can be a little consuming to go through an intermediate party, but the up side is these dealers all have a view of future sales and react accordingly.   They also value the equity they put into their clients and I assume most of their clients reciprocate.

Fred, I don't know your specific issues and dealer/manufacturer resolve with your medium format equipment, but I'll bet had you bought through the dealers and the factory rep I mentioned your outcome would have been much more positive.

And Fred, also understand I don't write this to defend any one dealer or brand, but I really, really hope this reply isn't used as a segway to start trashing any one camera brand.



IMO

BC



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