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Author Topic: Phase One High Speed flash sync. 1/1600  (Read 28717 times)
FredBGG
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« on: October 23, 2012, 02:38:18 AM »
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Phase One has a video on their home page where Frederico Martins is putting the high speed flash sync of the phase one to good use.

http://youtu.be/WjIAd1KcT4E

However he claims that it is impossible to do the same thing (flash with high shutter speed) with a 35mm DSLR. This is not true.

The video even shows him showing that it is not possible with a Nikon.

Well it is possible and it is possible to go even faster than a DF with leaf shutter lenses.

All he needed to do is use the Pocket Wizard Flex TT5 flash sync radio slaves with the hypersync function.

No problem with this setup, direct flash and an aperture of 5.6 (he said he was shooting at 1/1600th at 5.6).

Here is an example of hypersync used with strobe and a 35mm DSLR.


shot at 1/2500, F7.1, ISO 100


Nikon D300s, 24-70mm, ISO 200, 1/8000 at F5.

See the photographers article here http://tombolphoto.com/blog/more-rangerhypersync-news/

Here is another interesting example too though the image was used in a composite, it was still shot outside over poweing the sun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=jYKoNm0cxoY

Aslo here is a method without using a Flex TT5 and getting high speed sync with broncolor strobes.

http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/


Now that said it would be interesting to see if it were possible to use hypersync to go even faster using the
focal plane shutter of the DF. It may be a bit of a problem as the duration of the shutter swipe of the DF might be too long due to the flash sync without hypersync and the focal plane shutter is 1/125. Might be possible with a relatively long duration strobe like an Elinchrom 6,000 classic pack or the older 404.

Hypersync does take a bit of callibration. I am getting clean full frame exposure at a 1/4000th of a second using the elinchrom 6,000 pack.
However the 6,000 pack has to use a dual head to use all 6,000 so the duration is not quite as good as the 404 that can discharge in a single tube 4000 head.
I should be able to get a clean 1/800th using a 404 head with the 6,000 pack set to 4,000.

This may sound confusing, but here is how it works.

This is how the shutter works on the D800 for examnple.
At the fastest flash sync, 1/320th the first curtain opens fully. The flash goes off and then the second curtain closes.

For faster shutter speeds the second curtain stats to shut before the first shutter finishes opening.

At 1/8000th of a second this is what happens. The first curtain opens, but 1/8000th of a second after it starts to move the second curtain starts to close.
So there only a crack open between the two curtains. This crack scans over the sensor exposing each pixel for 1/8000th of a second.
To make this work the flash has to be illuminating for the duration of the scan. That is just under 1/320th of a second.

The Flex TT5 is calibrated so as to have the flash illuminating at the right time.

At the very highest speeds there may be a bit of underexposes area at the bottom of the frame. Depends on the flash/camera combination.

While the Phase One leaf shutter systems fastest flash sync speed with the most recent backs is 1/1600th it is simpler to use
and can be used with ultra fast flash.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 01:36:19 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 03:21:20 AM »
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FStoppers did a cool basket ball shot with the flex system.

http://vimeo.com/18109690#
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yaya
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 05:01:26 AM »
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Seeing what happened to the last Phase One video thread, how about moving this one to the 35mm section, dropping the first 6 lines and then calling it "How to use high speed flash sync on DSLR"

Wouldn't that be more beneficial to the community (assuming that is the OP's intention...)

Just a suggestion

Yair
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 05:33:06 AM by yaya » Logged

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FredBGG
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 05:43:37 AM »
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Seeing what happened to the last Phase One video thread, how about moving this one to the 35mm section, dropping the first 6 lines and then calling it "How to use high speed flash sync on DSLR"

Wouldn't that be more beneficial to the community (assuming that is the actual intention...)

Just one's opinion

Yair

The point of the post is to point out the incorrect statement about it being impossible to do with a 35mm DSLR and backing it up with the facts as well as good examples.

The info would be handy in the 35mm section too, but it is relevant here too.

I think it is relevant to this forum because many contempleting MF are drawn in by the myth of the DF Leaf shutter lens being the only camera system capable of high speed sync. They should be told the whole story.

I also think that it is useful info for those with other medium format systems and happen to also have 35mm systems that need to do high speed sync, letting them know
that they don't necessarily have to upgrade to the DF and LS lenses to do high speed sync. Knowing they can do it with 35mm might be useful to them.

But just to show that my intentions are honest let me add a few more details.

The pros of the Phase One with lea shutter lenses and high speed sync:

-Max megapixel count is 80MP while it is 36MP with the D800 (30MP if its for editorial that tends to be more of a 4x5 crop.)
-The phase one is a 1/1600th of a second exposure that is completed in the 1/1600th. For scientific purposes it is more accurate. A high speed sync with Nikon or Canon is a curtain gap scan it takes more time to complete the full frame exposure with each area receiving  1/4000th for example. There is some subject distortion, but it is minuscule.
-Phase One does not require any calibration. With the Nikon d800 you will have to do a one time calibration for your camera and strobes.
-Phase One system uses all the flash power. 35mm method is a scan so some flash power is lost. However the same depth of field is obtained with faster lenses on 35mm DSLRs.
-Phase system may be able to use some form of hyper sync with the focal plane shutter. If it did it might be able to go one stop faster.

The pros of the Canon /Nikon hypersync option:
-can be used with very compact speedlights
-faster sync speeds
-not restricted to a small amount of lenses
-way less expensive.
(-nikon and canon are looking into leaf shutter lens options... no eta yet)






« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 05:58:27 AM by FredBGG » Logged
gss
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 06:44:44 AM »
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The Ranger RX, together with S head and PocketWizard PowerST4 gets you a faster sync than Quadra with S head and Flex TTL.

With PhaseOne, you can use 1/1600 for sync, together with the new Broncolor Move or Profoto B4 at any power setting.  You would not be able to do that with HSS because the flash durations need to be long for HSS to work.  With most of the Elinchrom units, pack and monolight both, the flash durations don't change much when you reduce power, so you'd be able to use HSS, but you'd still chop away most of the output.
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Sheldon N
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 09:46:56 AM »
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Wow Fred, you really seem to have an axe to grind.

You even went so far as to submit your Phase One video "gotcha" to the PetaPixel blog...

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/23/marketing-fail-a-demo-of-af-speed-with-the-lens-set-to-mf/

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MrSmith
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 10:26:57 AM »
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is it possible to get faster sync with an elinchrom ranger quadra/5D III?
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Don Libby
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 10:31:57 AM »
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Here we go again.  It's never ending....
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Altdo
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 10:38:07 AM »
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This really just seems silly IMO.

Not to split hairs but isn't the process explained just high power continuous light?  It's coming from a strobe, sure.  But the strobe is calibrated to stay on continuously when shooting at a specific Shutter Speed.  That being the case, this isn't a flash "Sync" it's a calibrated flash duration to fit a Focal Plane shutters speed.
The end result is about the same, but the methods are very different and the term "High Speed Flash Sync" is still not achieved by the DSLR, it's achieved by the lights.

Big deal, technology changes and advertising always remains the same... I'll leave my pitchfork at home.
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kdphotography
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 11:32:42 AM »
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Wow Fred, you really seem to have an axe to grind.

You even went so far as to submit your Phase One video "gotcha" to the PetaPixel blog...

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/23/marketing-fail-a-demo-of-af-speed-with-the-lens-set-to-mf/



Yup, and please read the comments on the PetaPixel Blog, too.  Careful viewers saw how actually the hyper-critical criticism made by Fred over this unremarkable video----was actually what was misleading.  

What a waste of time and resources.  Medium Format Digital and Fred don't get along.  We get that.  Get over it already.  

I used to think wow, Fred has something credible to say about photography, film-based Fuji GX680 techniques in particular.  But then I keep seeing all the same hyper-critical, biased, misleading rants about the entire medium format industry, the same images or images by other photographers (without permission??), and general comments/advice replete with hasty generalizations----and imho, it destroys whatever credibility was once there for any other subject matter.  

I just don't understand what's up with all this negativity and paternalistic nonsense.  And maybe it's just because I'm such a happy go-lucky guy.  I think we need to send Doug Peterson over to give Fred a hug.   Kiss

imo,

ken
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:57:49 AM by kdphotography » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 12:20:07 PM »
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I'm not sure. I have not tried with a 5d III.

However the 5D III can do so with canon speedlights that support HSS so it is likely that you can.
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bcooter
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 02:13:34 PM »
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If you really want to freeze something fast moving, nothing works better than short flash duration strobes.

Flash is just a different animal than any type of high speed shutter and not only holds detail but allows for more unique light shaping.

I've shot movement of people forever and every project requires a different technique.  1/4000th of so of flash duration will usually make a cleaner sharper image.

I think this is an apples to apples conversation, because whether your using a medium format camera with Leaf shutters that cuts into the flash duration, or a pocket wizard that allows front and rear curtain to cut into a flash duration your still "cutting in the flash duration" and in a sense losing power and treating the flash as a continuous source.

What isn't mentioned here is who uses one camera for all kind of projects?  I don't, I really can't because a 35mm camera is a much different device than a medium format camera and so much more goes into the look of the file, not just freezing action or trying to find out which system "beats" the other system in one specific function.

You know, this type of conversation just rages on, with one side dead sure than their 35mm is the only camera in the world to shoot any project in the world, others will tell you the opposite with their medium format cameras.

I know I just find all of this silly and also know it will rage on until Michael comes on board and shows his usually common sense approach and closes the thread.

In my view, the best way I know to make this type of thread interesting is to show well crafted images, not just tests shot in the backyard.

Our Contax's shoot a slow sync, around 1/90th to 1/125 and we've shot fast action in studio with a stylized look.

Why not go to 35mm?  Because I wanted the depth of a ccd camera's file, I needed at the time the ability to pul back and crop.

What I did was rather than push hard to prove a contax is better than a Nikon or a Hasselblad is better than a Leaf, I took what I owned, used flash that was appropriate for the look, tested to be sure of the result and shot the job . . . oh yea also got paid.

It's easy to say what won't my camera do, but it's more beneficial to post how something can be done and why.

This photo was shot at full speed by a Tennis Pro.  He hits the ball so hard the tennis  ball moved the catch canvas mounted on rollers.

We tested with different flash, wanted some movement on the tennis racket (it has been enhanced in retouching) but also need the body in focus.

I believe we achieved both using monolights, testing at different power to change the duration.


Contax 645, P30+

This image was shot with a Nikon D3 at very high ISO a 300 mm lens wide open.
Though it looks like reportage it was shot for a commercial client to achieve a certain style and look so scouting and camera position was as important as the camera itself.

To me the only difference between this image and the tennis player was the location and creative brief.  Obviously they're not going to let me set up high speed strobes in a world meet in Osaka, but we scouted for hours to find the exact spot to give a more stylized lighting look.



Would I use the Contax for this image, probably not without lighting and other tricks, but I didn't throw my medium format cameras away just because I used 35mm.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 02:22:48 PM by bcooter » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2012, 02:40:53 PM »
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I still maintain that this thread belongs to a different section....

In the video the OP refers to, the photographer states more than once that he is using the system so that he can achieve a shallow DOF while somewhat controlling the ambient sun light. He is not talking about freezing motion.

This is easily done with the system he shoots on and NOT so easily done with 35mm. The samples shown by the OP are not what we can call shallow DOF images.
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Sheldon N
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2012, 03:56:36 PM »
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NOT so easily done with 35mm

It's not that hard to use an ND filter. Certainly it's less desirable than shooting with a clear and unobstructed viewfinder, but not a huge difference IMHO. MFD has a lot of other benefits that set it apart, the leaf shutter sync speed isn't really the key selling point.

I've played around a bunch with the Pocket Wizard "hypersync" stuff trying to match flash duration against sync speed. It's mostly a fools errand where you've got limited control, no ability to meter the strobe, and no guarantee that it will work with your particular strobe/camera. Personally I think the only reason to even worry about extreme sync speeds is when you need to freeze motion when you've got a strong ambient contribution to the moving portion of the image.

Anyhow, here's a ND filter snapshot from a few years ago... Elinchrom Ranger and indirect softbox against hard sunlight rim at f/1.2. Shot with a 6 stop ND filter, and was still able to use autofocus.

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FredBGG
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 04:19:13 PM »
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I still maintain that this thread belongs to a different section....

In the video the OP refers to, the photographer states more than once that he is using the system so that he can achieve a shallow DOF while somewhat controlling the ambient sun light. He is not talking about freezing motion.

This is easily done with the system he shoots on and NOT so easily done with 35mm. The samples shown by the OP are not what we can call shallow DOF images.

Shallow depth of field can be done with 35mm DSLR.

Here is a shot I linked to in my previous posts:


Photo ProPhotoNut

Here is the link to the article that I previously posted:
[url]http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/[url]

Shot at 1/8000th f2.8 Canon 100mm 2.8 macro with broncolor flash pack. Canon 5D mark II 36x24 sensor.

That will produce as shallow a depth of field than a 110mm at 5.6 on a 44x33 sensor, maybe more shallow.

Could have been shot with a faster lens too.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 04:24:20 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »
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One thing to keep in mind is that metering can be a bit complicated with mixed light.

With the Phase One system if you are using a flash with a duration equal too or shorter than the shutter speed It will be easier to use a hand held meter.
This is because all the flash duration exposes the sensor.

With 35mm you need to use a longer duration flash. The not all the flash duration is captured and with faster speeds you "waste" power.
This though is not much of an issue with digital as you just have to take a few extra test shots to check your exposure.

With the Phase One system using flashed with longer flash duration would lead to light loss at the fastest speeds.
If the flash duration is say 1/400th and you shoot at 1/1600th you will lose upto 2 stops due to the shutter being open for about 1/4 of the flash duration.
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 04:53:38 PM »
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Hello

Just tried the technique out lined in the link below in my studio and bugger me it works.

http://www.prophotonut.com/2010/05/23/18000th-flash-sync-with-broncolor-mobil-and-canon-5d-mk2/

I was getting 1,600th sec flash sync with my Bowens Estime generator.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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Sheldon N
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 05:02:36 PM »
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Try shooting a single strobe head against a bare wall or seamless.  Depending on how slow/fast your flash duration is, you may see a top to bottom gradient of uneven exposure across the short side of the image frame. This can be caused by the power of the strobe pulse ramping up and fading off as the shutter moves across the frame.  Even at 1/1600 shutter speed the exposure still takes about 1/200 for the shutter to move from one end of the image to the other.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 06:22:55 PM »
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These two methods are very different from each other.  

One is traditional flash sync which can be used with any flash unit at any setting with minimal fuss. The other is a unit-specific trigger-timing modification to drag the shutter along the length of the flash curve for a particular power setting. Both are useful tools. But they are not the same thing.

Also, with the hypersync option you either lose a lot of light, or you have uneven illumination throughout the frame (or both). This may not matter for some uses, and in some uses it may even be preferable (e.g. acting as a defacto graduated ND filter on a male portrait to darken the forehead a la Star Trek TOS).

Anyway, citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One is just really silly. Where will your witch hunt take you next? Perhaps you can lead a discussion on how Phase One is lying to everyone because they call their kit lens an 80mm when the specification sheets clearly states it is a 79.25mm lens.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 06:25:00 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 06:51:19 PM »
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Anyway, citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One is just really silly. Where will your witch hunt take you next? Perhaps you can lead a discussion on how Phase One is lying to everyone because they call their kit lens an 80mm when the specification sheets clearly states it is a 79.25mm lens.

Now you did it.  Just couldn't leave well enough alone  Cheesy
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