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Author Topic: Phase One High Speed flash sync. 1/1600  (Read 46352 times)
HarperPhotos
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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 06:58:13 PM »
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Hello,

Just do a quick test with my Bowens Estime slowest flash speed is 429th Sec.

Nikon D800E+50mm F1.4G lens

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 07:00:01 PM by HarperPhotos » Logged

Simon Harper
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Kagetsu
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 07:06:04 PM »
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I use my 580EXii on my 645DF... Just saying.  Wink I fail to see how PhaseOne have lied. I'm not suggesting the future might be different, Canikon may in the future decide to make a few leaf shutter style lenses (though I doubt it). I'd imagine they'd need a few more lens registers to do that.

Fred suggested the difference is small, yet, the reality is the difference is undeterminable as it's entirely reliant on conditions of the photo. Additionally, while high speed sync could be used in a studio it's never really pushed to its limit there (as far as models and general shoots go).

Ultimately it comes down to the raw explanation of what flash sync is referred to in the industry. (and I site Broncolor and ProPhoto as examples... Broncolor used t0.1 lighting to refer to their flash durations but have gone to t0.5 because that's what industry uses)

Flash sync refers to the time the sensor is entirely exposed to the image.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 10:04:54 PM »
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Anyway, citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One is just really silly. Where will your witch hunt take you next? Perhaps you can lead a discussion on how Phase One is lying to everyone because they call their kit lens an 80mm when the specification sheets clearly states it is a 79.25mm lens.

Who's citing this as an example of dishonesty on behalf of Phase One? I certainly did not in this thread. Simply pointed out that the photographer is wrong in claiming that it is not possible to do this
with a few other cameras. He simply may not have been aware of other methods.

However now that you bring this up....

Phase One does write the following on the page with the video......
Quote
Frederico explains and shows how his unique images can only be created with an ultra fast flash sync of 1/1600s. This feature is unique to Phase One camera systems with Schneider Kreuznach leaf shutter lenses.

It's true that only Phase One has a leaf shutter system that reached 1/1600th. However it is also true that the same results could be obtained with a Hasselblad H4D, twice the flash power and a simple neutral density filter.
If you are working at 5.6. direct and a slow camera twice the flash power is not really a problem at all. Working in bright sunlight with an ND filter of one stop is also not a problem. The photos are quite posed and static so the difference between a 1/800th and a 1/1600th would not effect the image much a one stop ND filter and more flash power balances things out, bringing you at the same fstop. I would not go as far as calling this blatant lying, but it isn't exactly accurate.
Phase does do it "one stop better", but saying it can only be crated with ultra fast flash sync of 1/1600th of a second is at least an exaggeration.

Does the Phase One do this better and easier... yes, but only by one stop.

That said the Phase One does have the advantage of having both a leaf Shutter and a focal plane shutter. This lets you shoot non flash related work at up to 1/4000th of a second. Definitely a plus compared to a Hasselblad.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 12:39:08 AM by FredBGG » Logged
Kagetsu
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2012, 10:23:29 PM »
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Just re-watched it to check. Can this flash sync trick work with studio strobes?
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FredBGG
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« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2012, 12:46:14 AM »
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Hello,

Just do a quick test with my Bowens Estime slowest flash speed is 429th Sec.

Nikon D800E+50mm F1.4G lens

Cheers

Simon


Nice. This calls for a video quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkjD3D5FgmE Wink

With a FlexTT5 and the timing adjustments you can make you may be able to clean up the 1/1600th to get the same result you are getting with the 1/800th of a second.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 12:49:21 AM by FredBGG » Logged
BrendanStewart
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2012, 01:33:04 PM »
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So what's wrong with me using my Hasselblad H3DII and any lens at 1/800th in full day sunlight?

Shooting with a Quadra or regular Ranger pack, i do it all the time. Setup takes less than a minute. What point is the OP trying to make? You'd rather fumble with some hack than use the real thing? I don't get it...

Instead of talking crap numbers all day, here are some photographs. You know, from people who actually photograph for a living...

(Couples are not so stunning like models are, i'll be the first to admit... )

All shot in strong afternoon sun, but made to look like evening sun...


Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-10 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-12 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-208 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-203 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Boston-Wedding-Photography-Blog-19 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Nima-Sagar-Newport-Indian-Wedding032 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 01:44:11 PM by BrendanStewart » Logged
HarperPhotos
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« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2012, 01:42:53 PM »
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Hello,

The point is for me that thanks to Fred I have seen a technique to get faster flash sync with a Nikon D800E if I so choose to do so. I have a Mamiya RZ with leaf shutter so I now have the best of both worlds.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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FredBGG
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« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2012, 01:51:47 PM »
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So what's wrong with me using my Hasselblad H3DII and any lens at 1/800th in full day sunlight?

Shooting with a Quadra or regular Ranger pack, i do it all the time. Setup takes less than a minute. What point is the OP trying to make? You'd rather fumble with some hack than use the real thing? I don't get it...

Instead of talking crap numbers all day, here are some photographs. You know, from people who actually photograph for a living...

(Couples are not so stunning like models are, i'll be the first to admit... )

All shot in strong afternoon sun, but made to look like evening sun...


Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-10 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Sayjal-Santosh-Engagement-12 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-208 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Hilary-Justin-Flying-Bridge-Hyannis-Wedding-203 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Boston-Wedding-Photography-Blog-19 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr


Nima-Sagar-Newport-Indian-Wedding032 by Boston Wedding Photographer - SymbolPhoto, on Flickr

Actually Brendan one of the points I made is that the effect can be done with other cameras and I pointed out that the Hasselblad does what the Phase One does, but just one stop slower.
My point is that it is not an effect that is only possible with the Phase One as Phase One would like people to believe.

You excellent photos are a damn good example of that and thanks for posting them!

You are right that the way you can do this with a leaf shutter is simpler, but I also wanted to point out that those that don't have a leaf shutter system can also get the same results.

Each method has it's advantages and limitations.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 09:18:47 AM by FredBGG » Logged
BrendanStewart
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« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2012, 02:06:35 PM »
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You wouldn't catch me with brides/grooms trying to fumble with triggers and settings... by the time i got to the right settings, i'd lose all my time with them...

Just sayin'. Nevermind the inaccuracies of metering, losing all the power you paid for in that power pack of yours...  just doesn't add up. In the end, it'd be cheaper to go out and buy an X100 and sync to 1/4000th and call it a day instead of fiddling with this sync crap.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2012, 04:42:51 PM »
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You wouldn't catch me with brides/grooms trying to fumble with triggers and settings... by the time i got to the right settings, i'd lose all my time with them...

Just sayin'. Nevermind the inaccuracies of metering, losing all the power you paid for in that power pack of yours...  just doesn't add up. In the end, it'd be cheaper to go out and buy an X100 and sync to 1/4000th and call it a day instead of fiddling with this sync crap.

It's actually quite simple once one has worked out the settings for the camera and flash setup.

That said due to the flash power loss with high speed synch with a 35mm DSLR it is going to be more suited to shallow depth of filed work... exactly what the photographer in the video was talking about.

Good idea pointing out the X100 as an option for someone exploring this type of lighting style.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2012, 04:49:35 PM »
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(Couples are not so stunning like models are, i'll be the first to admit... )



I'd say you did a beautiful job...
The couple may not be as "stunning" like models, but I'm sure those images you took will be cherished for many many years
unlike most fashion photos.......

Both worthy types of photos... Wink
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 05:05:14 PM by FredBGG » Logged
abiggs
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« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2012, 04:52:19 PM »
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troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
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« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2012, 06:44:48 PM »
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troll

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Looking for a LIKE Button!
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2012, 10:30:12 PM »
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troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.
Looking for a LIKE Button!

+1
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UlfKrentz
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« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2012, 03:54:08 AM »
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You wouldn't catch me with brides/grooms trying to fumble with triggers and settings... by the time i got to the right settings, i'd lose all my time with them...

Just sayin'. Nevermind the inaccuracies of metering, losing all the power you paid for in that power pack of yours...  just doesn't add up. In the end, it'd be cheaper to go out and buy an X100 and sync to 1/4000th and call it a day instead of fiddling with this sync crap.

Hi Brendan,

I agree, nice work by the way. One thing those high speed sync fans should also consider, flash color output is not constant during flash duration. It is shifting from high K to low K, if exposed to the whole frame like with a leaf shutter lens youŽll achieve the intended daylight color, if you use a focal plane shutter this may become an issue. If you light the complete frame like shown in these pictures, youŽll be far better served with the "real thing".

Cheers, Ulf
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yaya
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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2012, 04:25:22 AM »
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flash color output is not constant during flash duration. It is shifting from high K to low K

Exactly, we can see it in Simon's samples above...
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FredBGG
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« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2012, 01:22:35 PM »
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Exactly, we can see it in Simon's samples above...

Not exactly. If you actually look at all three images the one with more color cast is the one taken without a high speed sync.
The three different shots actually have about the same amount of color variation, each have an overall different cast, but the variation within each photo are the same.

There is some unevenness but if that unevenness were due to the flash it would be an unevenness only from top to bottom
following the direction of the shutter.

Being that within each photo the color cast variation is about the same there is not a color issue caused by capturing color that  changes durring the shutter curtain pass.

If the flash duration is long enough the exposure can be timed to take place over a consistent part of the flash duration.

One that is setup it works fine. No as easy as doing it with the Phase one, but many many times less expensive and with a vastly wider range of lenses such as the really fast 50s, 85s, and 200s offered by 35mm DLSRs, not to mention all the zooms, tilt shifts.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 01:34:30 PM by FredBGG » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2012, 10:24:52 PM »
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troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

+1

Looking for a "Like" or "Troll" button....

 Smiley
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FredBGG
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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2012, 05:35:00 PM »
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1/5000 at f4.0

This guy is doing high speed sync with Sony SLR cameras using an Optical Hot Shoe Trigger and Strobes with pocket wizards.

How he did it:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2519553
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kentmears
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« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2012, 10:20:04 PM »
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Seems to me the that this problem had been solved years ago for use with flash bulbs with focal plane shutters.
Speed Graphics, early Nikon F's and Pentax etc had M and FP sync settings (as well as X) for longer burning flash bulbs that triggered before the 1st blind opened.
If you wanted to get the same effect now without using PocketWizards it would probably quite simple for your Canon / Nikon's to program the cameras with firmware (if the was seen to be a need) so that flash sync was triggered before 1st blind opened - as a custom menu option ? All that would then be needed is a flash unit that with a flash duration that is quite slow (say longer than 1/200th sec) to achieve a fully exposed frame with a focal plane shutter on a high speed setting.
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