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Author Topic: National Health Systems  (Read 12242 times)
jeremypayne
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« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2012, 12:08:08 PM »
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3.  Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

Ok ... then I will say it.

All your numbered lists have shown us is how uneducated and cynical you are. 
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2012, 12:30:30 PM »
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Ok ... then I will say it.

All your numbered lists have shown us is how uneducated and cynical you are. 

And your reply above have shown us how mature you are.
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2012, 12:42:27 PM »
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And your reply above have shown us how mature you are.

Maturity is over-sold.  Some of my best friends are little kids who can't even say maturity.

... and if you and Steve are mature and I am not ... I can definitely live with that.

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Isaac
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« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2012, 01:19:11 PM »
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This is an expression of realism.

The definition of realism is not a judgement made before investigation.

The definition of cynicism is an emphatic negative judgement made before investigation.

You wrote "...is that a program that defines itself by showing how Canada performs against other countries could be anything less than biased...".

That denial, without investigation, of even the possibility that it "could be anything less than biased..." is by definition an expression of cynicism.


...we could call it a "discussion" as in "discussion forum" where people can give well reasoned statements without the affidavits?

You made a definitive statement - "We have no knowledge of funding because they have selected to provide none."

The problem is that we can all see that they did provide the information and you found the information -- your definitive statement cannot be true.

There is no "well reasoned" when you start from a statement that cannot be true.


If you're really unable to see how a program specifically started to show Canada in a good light might be biased...

You claim that it's "a program specifically started to show Canada in a good light" but that is not how the program describes itself -- "How Canada Performs: A Report Card on Canada—assesses Canada’s quality of life compared with that of its peer countries."

We don't need you to tell a story about "might be biased".

We need you to show that you have found examples of actual bias in "How Canada Performs".
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2012, 01:41:25 PM »
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Maturity is over-sold.  Some of my best friends are little kids who can't even say maturity.

... and if you and Steve are mature and I am not ... I can definitely live with that.



I am not agreeing with Steve...or you completely for that matter.  I was simply stating my opinion on you making the debate personal.  You were doing well with your points and your reasoning until then.  I know that I am not always mature, I think that sometimes that is a positive thing.  In this case, it is not. 
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2012, 04:21:54 PM »
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I think we can agree on that point, yet it is my belief that most of the costs of health care are for that very purpose, wherever the money may come from. We live to be merry, and that includes eating and drinking for pleasure with narry a thought for the consequences.

You're referring to inanimate objects here, aren't you? In so far as these inanimate objects are life-threatening, then of course the Government has a role to play. Roads should be designed and constructed so they are safe to drive on. Houses should be built in accordance with certain standards to withstand the onslaught of hurricanes and floods, if they are situated in areas frequently subjected to hurricanes and floods, and when infrequent disasters of record-breaking severity occur, as recently with Sandy, then the government has to step in, as your great President Obama has vowed to do, without interference and delays from red tape.

Just for the record, I might have misrepresented the situation regarding dental care for the uninsured in Australia. I suspect dental care in Australia for the uninsured is probably similar in quality to the general medical care in America for the uninsured. You state,
In Australia, that also applies to any dental situation which any individual thinks is an urgent problem, such as a tooth ache or a filling which has dropped out. Our hospitals have emergency dental clinics. To get attention one has to turn up at the dental clinic at 7am, or earlier if you want to be first in the queue. The clinic will probably open at 8am or 8,30am, and you might be lucky to see a dentist by 10am. The problem tooth will be extracted or refilled, but any other matters that need attention will require one to be put on a long waiting list for an appointment. By long, I mean 6 months or more.

This situation is far different from a visit to the doctor for whatever reason. Those who do not have private insurance in Australia do not have to self-diagnose themselves as having a life-threatening condition before getting a speedy appointement with a doctor. Nor do they have to queue up for long hours in the early morning, at least not where I live.

All that is required is a simple phone call to make an appointment, which can usually be the same day. Sometimes there may be a slight wait beyond the time of the appointment; sometimes not. The problem can be quite trivial, such as ears getting a bit blocked up with wax, a cough that won't go away, or a pain in the arse. One usually has to pay a small amount for any medication that is prescribed.

Hope I've managed to enlighten you, Steve, on the qualities of a good health system.  Grin



1.  We can and further I agree.   Most doctors I've observed spend a good 70-80% of their day treating self-inflicted issues.  Diabetes, heart disease, respiratory diseases, hypertension, addiction, and more..  mostly brought on a poor lifestyle.

2.  I suspect our President is finding it's not so easy when the shoe is on the other foot, even with a relatively minor disaster when compared to Katrina.   Again, I don't blame the Presidents at all.  Not even for the perceived lack of response.  I blame the people (as I do for healthcare) for not being prepared and having the discipline to have backup plans and supplies in place THEY can effect.  This includes a minimum 2 weeks worth of supplies to include foods, cooking fuels, medicines, and so forth.  For the first two weeks following a disaster we should only be hearing from the injured, elderly, or those who have been victimized n some way.  Everyone else should be sucking up not being able to watch television, staying out of the way so emergency crews can work, and living off their supplies.   And of course it's the same people who haven't prepared by having health insurance who haven't prepared for disasters..

3.  It's nice you have the dental service.. wonder what it costs your government?   Our family visited the dentist twice this year.  In each case I was curious if it would be cheaper to pay for it out of pocket like some guy walking in off the street without insurance.. or paying whatever my insurance required.  Well.. they wanted $920 for a veneer for me and $2700 for four wisdom teeth extracted on my son.. walk in prices that the clinic would have billed a customer/patience without insurance.  We chose insurance.  A few weeks later we got a bill from the clinic(s) that they charged my insurance $182 for the veneer and $423 for the oral surgery.   This is a major part of our problem.  People who could otherwise afford their own dental without insurance can no longer do so because the prices are inflated.. I asked why?  They said to cover the cost of those  who said they'd pay and didn't, or couldn't, etc.  I asked why that cost isn't shared among the insurance as well.  They said they refused.  But a guy without insurance can't refuse.  It's a broken system that heavily pushes people to participate in the insurance game.

4.  And it's appreciated.  I'm sure there are pieces of your system we could use in our own, and maybe pieces of ours you guys could use.  Our countries are very different. so not all will translate.. but there's nothing wrong with getting what you can.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2012, 04:25:31 PM »
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I am not agreeing with Steve...or you completely for that matter.  I was simply stating my opinion on you making the debate personal.  You were doing well with your points and your reasoning until then.  I know that I am not always mature, I think that sometimes that is a positive thing.  In this case, it is not. 

There was nothing to agree with, no information presented, no reasoning, no nothing.. just insults.  This happens when they have run out of everything else.  I don't take it personally.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2012, 04:46:29 PM »
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The definition of realism is not a judgement made before investigation.

The definition of cynicism is an emphatic negative judgement made before investigation.

You wrote "...is that a program that defines itself by showing how Canada performs against other countries could be anything less than biased...".

That denial, without investigation, of even the possibility that it "could be anything less than biased..." is by definition an expression of cynicism.


You made a definitive statement - "We have no knowledge of funding because they have selected to provide none."

The problem is that we can all see that they did provide the information and you found the information -- your definitive statement cannot be true.

There is no "well reasoned" when you start from a statement that cannot be true.


You claim that it's "a program specifically started to show Canada in a good light" but that is not how the program describes itself -- "How Canada Performs: A Report Card on Canada—assesses Canada’s quality of life compared with that of its peer countries."

We don't need you to tell a story about "might be biased".

We need you to show that you have found examples of actual bias in "How Canada Performs".

1.  I did investigate all that was needed.  I pointed out my investigation time and again.  Just because you personally don't accept it.. doesn't make it untrue.

2.  Again, there have been tons of investigation.  Maybe not the type you'd agree with, but with all the information out there to read and take it, if it isn't presented in a way that meets my personal filters for acceptance then it's "investigation enough."  Credibility is a scarce resource.  I find this study has none.  It's entirely self-serving in concept so I won't be wasting my time further.  Sorry, but next time you try and support an argument use a less biased resource.  Otherwise I personally won't accept it.  And don't fool yourself by thinking I'm a minority.  It's a piss-poor way of presenting information UNLESS and it did this very well.. unless you're catering to your base. And Canada is it's base. Most people in Canada want to believe their system is great and their taxes are being used wisely.. works well there.

3.  You're wrong.  There has been plenty of good solid reasoning and debate, but like a dog with a bone you've ignored it all, refused to answer questions, all in an attempt to make a point you'll never make.

4.  Come on Isaac.. have you been that much programmed that you can't see they're one and the same?   The only reason I've allowed this to go on so long is in the smallest hope you'll see this one point.   

5.  No.  The "study" hasn't earned that much.  In review it fails on it's concepts.  It's as simple as that.  It has to make it through one filter before it goes through another.  This doesn't pass the first smell test.


Anyway.. we're never going to agree on this.. that we can agree not to agree and leave this particular subject behind?   
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2012, 05:26:16 PM »
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There was nothing to agree with, no information presented, no reasoning, no nothing.. just insults.  This happens when they have run out of everything else.  I don't take it personally.

Oh please.  I participate in meaningful ways in meaningful conversations.

This has been one long exercise in typing.  I have rarely seen so many words wasted on nothing.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2012, 05:44:39 PM »
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Oh please.  I participate in meaningful ways in meaningful conversations.

This has been one long exercise in typing.  I have rarely seen so many words wasted on nothing.
We were in this thread.. and you have participated only through insults in this thread.  Surely you knew I meant this thread?  I mean, who would think they've built up enough "points" for meaningful conversation in one thread that they were allowed to only insult in another?

Try this.  Choose a point you agree with concerning the subject matter and tell us what you think.  Try to separate your view on the subject matter from your view of the person.  Who knows, through discussion you just might change your mind about something. 

We've actually learned a lot about the health care systems of each others countries.  We've expressed views.  So far better than most threads. 
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Isaac
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« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2012, 07:39:25 PM »
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... if it isn't presented in a way that meets my personal filters for acceptance then it's "investigation enough."

Of course, you are free to decide that no investigation is "investigation enough" for you -- and now we can judge your opinions accordingly.


... that you can't see they're one and the same?

Without your cynical prejudice we can learn -- "...that relative to its peer countries, Canada’s performance is weak on key indicators. ... Canada has the third highest mortality rate due to diabetes among the peer countries, and diabetes prevalence continues to increase. This should be raising alarm bells, not only among Canadian policy-makers but also among the public."

No "show Canada in a good light" and "assesses Canada’s quality of life" are not "one and the same".
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2012, 12:27:07 PM »
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Of course, you are free to decide that no investigation is "investigation enough" for you -- and now we can judge your opinions accordingly.


Without your cynical prejudice we can learn -- "...that relative to its peer countries, Canada’s performance is weak on key indicators. ... Canada has the third highest mortality rate due to diabetes among the peer countries, and diabetes prevalence continues to increase. This should be raising alarm bells, not only among Canadian policy-makers but also among the public."

No "show Canada in a good light" and "assesses Canada’s quality of life" are not "one and the same".

1.  Yes you can.  Thank you.

2.  Well through your home court prejudices we learn that the Mortality Rates Due To Flaws Inherent in Countries Current Health Care System aren't even being discussed.  Have you reached the point yet where you realize what isn't included in a "program outcome" can actually invalidate the entire result?  (come on Isaac.. I've been helping you the entire way, you can do it..)  Kinda like what you don't say can become a lie?   If you put an "outcome" out there masquerading as a "study" and it doesn't even mention the most controversial issues surrounding the subject in question.. well.. that's my number #1 filter.  

If you can't even acknowledge there might be a flaw in the system.. then the system itself isn't being evaluated.  What's being evaluated instead is a list of self-selected indicators which may or may not have anything to do with the program itself.   Even a relatively dull person has to be asking why these indicators and not others: are they (the indicators) balanced, redundant, germane, measuring our greatest concerns, showing our greatest needs, etc, etc.. I'm sure by now you can see some areas of concern on your own.  

In other words Isaac.. and I do thank you for hanging on and the resultant discussion.. if you're going to put a "study" out there for debate.. pick one that means something.  Not just the first one that shows up on Google that supports your personal views.


3.  Ah, but now you can see how it really is.  Or at a minimum how I do.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 12:29:50 PM by Steve Weldon » Logged

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Isaac
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« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2012, 12:49:10 PM »
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Well through your home court prejudices...

Yet another baseless claim. You make stuff up -- and now we can judge your opinions accordingly.

I'm a California resident - I have no association at all with Canada.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 01:11:27 PM by Isaac » Logged
Steve Weldon
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« Reply #93 on: November 04, 2012, 08:59:47 PM »
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Yet another baseless claim. You make stuff up -- and now we can judge your opinions accordingly.

I'm a California resident - I have no association at all with Canada.


Why do you have to be so hostile?   Who said anything about Canada?  If I'd wanted to say Canada then I would have.  Is this the extent of your critical reading skills?  I don't know what position you're coming from because you have refused to answer a single question, so I came up with a generic "place" you're coming from.  I've tried (patiently) to answer every single question you've asked.  You've answered none I've asked.   I've waited patiently for a single piece of reasoned opinion or logic coming from YOU on the subject, while providing plenty of mine.  And again you haven't met the challenge.  If we want to judge opinions accordingly then I say we go with that.


Isaac, stop being lazy for gawds sake.  You took such a lazy man's route to taking a position by posting such an encumbered (biased) study that wouldn't pass the filters of a competent grade school student.  It is that hard to just say what you believe?  No one is trying to win, no one trying to insult, no games are being played.  It's an adult discussion forum.  Let's discuss.  I really don't believe the best you can do is post some study that contributes so little and says not a word about your own beliefs. 
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BlasR
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« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2012, 08:49:22 AM »
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I did my part, I light a candle for Michael.

About Ins, in Canada, its better then US?

I am moving to Australia, its no one there, just in the middle, no see anyone, in spend my life away from anyone control my CASH, or tell me to work hard the others need me to to get free stuff, I just wish another BHO don't go there..I can't even write his name.

He, was in Chicago, waiting for those the don't like to work, in want ME to pay for their ins, food,tabaco,drug in U name it, they got it all, are those the vote for him...well the luck stop I quit my job...I want free as well. even so, I hate it..BUT maybe Jeff can send me his check?


Michael,  U will be just fine.

God Bless!
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2012, 09:29:31 AM »
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Judging by your eloquent writing, you've already spent your life "away from anyone," especially schools (I guess you missed the memo they are free).
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Slobodan

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BlasR
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« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2012, 12:08:24 PM »
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I can fly airplane..I went to school for that!  I can write in Spanish so well, I had been a news paper Journalist for over 24 years..Went to school for that as well!(wow)

i was a professional jockey, work like a dog( but a white dog), to earn money, then a professional Boxer (didn't lose a fight in 11 fights) So i can kick your ass as well.  I start working when i was 4 years old..if anyone ask for a favor, I did the favor, no gift can be accepted..A favor was a favor...My father die, because we didn't have money to pay to the Doctor, so he send him home to die..At 43 he was gone..16 kids one Mom..Lets go to work..No favor from NO ONE,,LETS GO TO WORK..Work, like a DOGs,,(I'm the poor one, in still alive 13, in I'm rich) went to war as a Journalist, see the worse, but nothing like now, putting the thing to be president..oh lord! help us all!!!!!

Tmy hard work, I can rest, in now he saying give it to you to smoke?  Get lost!..., now stupid people like U, believed the  my hard working MONEY, I should give to them,(I'm sure 100% plus, U are one of them)..As, I think the only people it doesnt scare and who Obama hussein will be celebrating are the radical muslims, terrosists( look Libia) groups and of course the American commi's as well as the people who are depressed and need someone to hold their hand.  and those the want my hard working money, to use drug with it.

HE IS A LIAR and is BAD for America.

May God bless all.

Oh I forget..I can take photos as well..No bad!

Send me a check, noooo,stick it.....I hate free things..Never accept it, never will...never want it in I will DIE first, if I will jealous of those the work, make million or billion or a cent, in I want to be like them.

Be you, no someone else.
take a shower U need it!!!!!



Watch obama 2016..I did,  look his own Brother, or just find out of the uncle(drunk one) the is here in MA< ask, if Obama help him..Obama want we all be the same..BUT no him...

so why to work anymore?  we should always just drink, in wait for the next check to come...to the hell your F**** Ass will get anything else from me.

I just wish, Michael, feel better don't U?

enjoy life!
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2012, 12:38:58 PM »
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... My father die, because we didn't have money to pay to the Doctor, so he send him home to die..At 43 he was gone...

Isn't it something BHO's healthcare could have helped with?
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Slobodan

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« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2012, 01:18:56 PM »
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NOPE..NOTHING FREE.work for it, or die  with hussein, he work hard, lets take from him, and , lets give it to someone else....Watch Obama 2016, oh BTW, he only give what he take from someone else, no what he got..people are just plain stupid, ...who will pay for it?  We paying over 20,000 since the jerk took office...less then 10, before..gas? over 4, less then 2...like i said in stay "I think the only people it doesnt scare and who Obama hussein will be celebrating are the radical muslims, terrosists groups and of course the American commi's as well as the people who are depressed and need someone to hold their hand.those the don't want to work, in expect the free things, from those the work to be someone"...why to work now?

before someone did a favor, a thank u, was all the ask for...now is can u do me a favor, will cost u an eye..But I understand, free things MUST be great for people like U...So, to bad, will not last

HE IS A LIAR and is BAD for America.

May God bless all
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2012, 01:29:02 PM »
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{blah blah}

PLEASE move to Australia. 
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