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Author Topic: New Red River baryta paper  (Read 4592 times)
Rand47
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« on: October 25, 2012, 01:52:34 PM »
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With the price increases on Ilford's Gold Fibre Silk baryta paper (I was properly corrected re price increase, I was mistaken.), I was encouraged to receive this announcement from Red River Paper for their new San Gabriel SemiGloss Fiber.  I've ordered some to test.  If it is as equivalent to IGFS as some of the beta testers report, it will be a good alternative.  AND it is available in 17x25" sheets!

Info here: http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/san-gabriel-semigloss-fiber-baryta-photo-inkjet-fine-art-paper.html
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 10:04:31 PM by Rand47 » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2012, 01:54:57 PM »
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I don't know where you are writing from, but here in Toronto there has been no price increase of Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. In fact the last couple of packages I bought the price had decreased by a few dollars.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Rand47
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2012, 02:00:30 PM »
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I don't know where you are writing from, but here in Toronto there has been no price increase of Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. In fact the last couple of packages I bought the price had decreased by a few dollars.

Mark,

I'm in Southern CA and visited my usual retail outlet just yesterday, intending to pick up some 13x19 IGFS.  I was bowled over at the price for a box of 10 sheets and didn't buy it.  I hope you're correct and my retailer was just out of line.  I'll do some checking on line for other sources.  One of the problems I have with online purchases of paper is the lousy packaging and damage I often get on larger sheet sizes, so prefer to pick it up in person at retail stores. 

At any rate, thanks for the feedback and encouragement.  I'll shop around.  Having said that, I'll still be curious about the San Gabriel paper and how it compares.  17x25" sheets is my preferred default for my 4880, rather than roll paper that has curl induced.

Thanks again . . .
Rand
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2012, 02:19:05 PM »
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Rand - OK, part of the problem you are facing is buying 10 sheet boxes instead of 50 sheet boxes. You are paying a HUGE penalty in terms of cost per sheet. For example, here in Toronto the outlet I deal with retails IGFS 13*19 inch at $46.18 per 10 sheet box ($4.62/sheet) versus $135.74 per 50 sheet box ($2.72 per sheet).

That said, it is good to have options and competition - so if you do buy the San Gabriel, it will be interesting to hear back what you think of it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Rand47
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2012, 02:46:22 PM »
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Rand - OK, part of the problem you are facing is buying 10 sheet boxes instead of 50 sheet boxes. You are paying a HUGE penalty in terms of cost per sheet. For example, here in Toronto the outlet I deal with retails IGFS 13*19 inch at $46.18 per 10 sheet box ($4.62/sheet) versus $135.74 per 50 sheet box ($2.72 per sheet).

That said, it is good to have options and competition - so if you do buy the San Gabriel, it will be interesting to hear back what you think of it.

Mark,

Again, thanks.  The 10 sheet box was all they had in stock.  I can see that I was mislead by the pricing as I usually do purchase in 50 sheet increments.

Once I've done a side-by-side of IGFS, Canson Baryta Photographique and the new Red River San Gababriel - I'll post my thoughts.

Rand
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 05:11:17 PM by Rand47 » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 03:21:17 PM »
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You're most unlikely to see any difference between the IGFS and the Canson BP - basically the same recipe from two separate manufacturers. The interesting one will be the San Gabriel.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2012, 07:38:51 AM »
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Interesting that Red River state the paper is free of OBAs.  I believe that IGFS has small amounts.
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MHMG
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2012, 08:47:04 AM »
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Interesting that Red River state the paper is free of OBAs.  I believe that IGFS has small amounts.

I received a sample of this paper a while back, probably during it's "beta" phase. I checked it for OBA content, and indeed, the sample I received was OBA-free. Surface and media color reminded me most of Museo Silver Rag... not a dead ringer since base is alpha cellulose not cotton, but close enough that people who like Silver Rag may want to give this New RR paper a try.

cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 08:49:52 AM by MHMG » Logged
Rand47
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2012, 12:38:36 PM »
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With the price increases on Ilford's Gold Fibre Silk bryta paper, I was encouraged to receive this announcement from Red River Paper for their new San Gabriel SemiGloss Fiber.  I've ordered some to test.  If it is as equivalent to IGFS as some of the beta testers report, it will be a good alternative.  AND it is available in 17x25" sheets!

Info here: http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/san-gabriel-semigloss-fiber-baryta-photo-inkjet-fine-art-paper.html

I received my 5 sheet sample pack of the San Gabriel paper, downloaded and installed the ICC profile, and made some test prints on my Epson R3000 printer.
I compared the San Gabriel to Museo Silver Rag & Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique.

Surface:
The San Gabriel (as mentioned) has a somewhat similar surface texture to the Museo Silver Rag but the pattern appears slightly more random.  To my eye the Museo SR has an almost linen look and pattern.  The Canson IBP, much like Ilford GFS, has a very slightly pebbled surface, though the Canson less so than Ilford GFS.

Tone:
Of the three papers, Canson IBP is the most neutral (relatively speaking of course), the RR San Gabriel and Museo SR are very similar w/ the RR San Gabriel being ever so slightly warmer to my eye in full diffuse daylight coming through my dining room windows (my standard "real life" test area).  

Overall look and feel of printed images:

I printed two images on letter size of all three papers.  All were allowed to dry down over night before evaluation.  One image was a standard calibration image that I've used for several years that I down loaded from the net.  Color patches, grayscales, children with different complexions, tech gear, metal objects, a scenic from the desert, some strawberries (I'm sure you've all seen and possibly used it).  The second image was from my DP2M camera with a broad dynamic range scene, some rich shadow areas with detail, lots of mid-tone with contrast, some highlights right below clipping with good detail - an alley scene shot in San Luis Obispo this past week w/ "used brick" wall, blacktop, gas meters, colorful banners stuck to the wall, etc.  A good range of tone and color.

The RR San Gabriel has less rich blacks and less sense of depth than either of the other papers as well as slightly less color saturation.  Its surface also seems to interfere w/ the observation of the image when even the slightest bit off axis to the light - more so than either of the other papers (there is always a bit of this with any paper, I only mention it "in comparison" to the other two).  This is not to say RR San Gabriel is bad, it just isn't as good, in my opinion, and the differences are subtle.  A casual observer in a gallery might see the differences as trivial.  I don't.  And there is an unquantifiable (even anecdotally) difference, in that the inks seem to be more sitting on the surface of the RR San Gabriel than either of the other two.  That's a kind of chicken-and-egg expression of the lower level of richness and depth observed.   There is nothing here to tempt me except for the availability of the 17x25" sheets.  Oh, and one laughable difference is that the RR San Gabriel doesn't have that "baryta" smell that the Canson and Ilford papers do.  Silly, but as an old darkroom duffer, I kind of like that.

I didn't bother with a price comparison.  I'm a relatively small volume printer, so having the look I want is more important than the price of the materials "for me."


Canson IBP continues to be my paper of choice (w/ Ilford GFS a virtual tie except for the Canson having a very slightly smoother surface), Museo Silver Rag for those times when more surface texture might be desired (not by me, however).  The RR San Gabriel falls into that category of a very nice paper in its own right, but not as delicious as the other two barytas available from Canson and Ilford.    YMMV

Ilford, Canson... wake up and smell the coffee!  Why not offer 17x25" sheets?  Your papers lie so beautifully flat when not coming off of a roll.  I'd gladly pay a little extra, and I suspect others would as well.

Rand

SEE UPDATE BELOW
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 04:13:44 PM by Rand47 » Logged
hugowolf
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2012, 03:03:37 PM »
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It is baryta, not bryta, but anyhow…

Thanks for doing the comparison. Given it is 100% cotton based and both GFS and Canson Baryta Photographique are pulp based, I think the Museo Silver Rag is bound to be more similar. The Canson paper that would fit best for comparison purposes would be Platine Rag, along with Hahnemühle Photo Rag Pearl.

Brian A
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 06:13:44 PM by hugowolf » Logged
John Caldwell
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2012, 05:06:02 PM »
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Thanks for this Rand. Love being able to hear from folks like you, particularly when you can make comparisons to media we know well. Is the RR whiteness close to the Museo, or it is more white - maybe closer to the OBA-containg Canson Baryta, please?

John Caldwell
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Rand47
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2012, 05:10:24 PM »
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It is baryta, not bryta, but anyhow…

Thanks for doing the comparison. Given it is 100% cotton based and Canson Baryta Photographique are both pulp based, I think the Museo Silver Rag is bound to be more similar. The Canson paper that would fit best for comparison purposes would be Platine Rag, along with Hahnemühle Photo Rag Pearl.

Brian A


Brian,

Thanks for the correction... all I can say is, Doh!   I've fixed it where I could, and have written it properly on my black-board 100 times.  Grin


Rand
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 05:16:01 PM by Rand47 » Logged
Rand47
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2012, 05:17:30 PM »
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Thanks for this Rand. Love being able to hear from folks like you, particularly when you can make comparisons to media we know well. Is the RR whiteness close to the Museo, or it is more white - maybe closer to the OBA-containg Canson Baryta, please?

John Caldwell

John,

To my eye, the RR is ever-so-slightly-warmer than the Museo.

Rand
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John Caldwell
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2012, 05:21:01 PM »
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Yes, you did say that in your original comments. I see the Museo as fairly warmer and "less bright" than the Canson Baryta, so the RR might be "moderately warmer" than the Canson. Does that sound fair?

Thank you,

John Caldwell
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leuallen
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2012, 06:14:54 PM »
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I echo rand47 summary except that I find the difference in dmax and color saturation very noticeable as compared to GFS or Ex Fiber.

I got a 17x25 box. The first sheet printed fine. From then on, I got two fine scratches in the feed direction starting at about the middle of the print. Tried various platten gap settings and paper thickness settings, rear feed vs auto, etc and nothing helped. Printer Epson 3800 which worked fine with 17x22 Ex Fiber subsequently printed. Maybe it is the paper swelling up and buckling up due to the ink load. It is a thick, stiff paper. Anyway, I can't use the paper and don't particularly want to due to the better color of the alternatives. Maybe I'll cut into smaller sheets and see if they print OK since the scratches start half way.

Note: a quick, rough estimation of how a paper will print compared to another is to get the profiles from the manufacturer and then soft proof in LR. The Red River paper gave noticeably inferior results compared to Ex Fiber, much more washed out appearance.

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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 07:13:10 AM »
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Given it is 100% cotton based and both GFS and Canson Baryta Photographique are pulp based, I think the Museo Silver Rag is bound to be more similar.
Not really; the paper stock does not have any impact, it is the coating that matters.  That is where the ink is applied and it doesn't matter if the base if rag or alpha-cellulose; they are both based on the same chemical structure.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2012, 08:22:37 AM »
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Based on the encircling descriptions in this thread, Innova IFA 19 FibaPrints Warmtone Gloss 300 gsm could be a candidate for this clone, if it is a clone. Same weight, Alpha Cellulose, warmer than Museo Silver Rag. Just a guess, I have no RR sample. That said a lower quality inkjet coating finish could cut cost compared to the Innova and would show in the print quality. RR papers usually have some similarities with US suppliers like Premier or Moab but their Fibre/Barytas  do not fit the descriptions here, Pictorico neither

On OBA content one has to be careful, the Premier Platinum Rag has Lab values 97.4 0.4 2.3 as measured with a Eye 1 Basic UV+, D50 mode. A tungsten illuminated spectrometer. Based on the b value one would assume a slightly warm paper and no OBA used, the spectral plot shows however suspicious curves and a UV light shows active OBA content compared to the Innova IFA19. I see that more often, the b value can be quite low near zero or even positive and still the OBA content can be quite high if the other whitening components, paper base+normal whiteners create not more than a warm white reflection. Premier says there is no OBA in that paper, there is however.

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http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
470+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012:
rearranged categories, Permajet + MediaJet brands added.


« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 10:23:10 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Rand47
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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2012, 03:54:32 PM »
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UPDATE:  I came back to my evaluation prints a few days later.  I was surprised to see an improvement in the RR San Gabriel relative to the others.  The ink now looks more "in than on top" of the paper.  And (I suspect as a result) appears slightly more saturated.  Dang if I know why!?

It makes me like this paper a bit more and I might even be tempted to buy some 17x25 sheets to further test.

I always assumed a 24 hour dry down time adequate - not so sure anymore.    YMMV
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2012, 02:33:16 AM »
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UPDATE:  I came back to my evaluation prints a few days later.  I was surprised to see an improvement in the RR San Gabriel relative to the others.  The ink now looks more "in than on top" of the paper.  And (I suspect as a result) appears slightly more saturated.  Dang if I know why!?

It makes me like this paper a bit more and I might even be tempted to buy some 17x25 sheets to further test.

I always assumed a 24 hour dry down time adequate - not so sure anymore.    YMMV

Strange changes if your 4880 is still running Epson inks. Same light you reviewed the prints with?

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
470+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012.


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Rand47
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« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2012, 08:50:11 AM »
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Strange changes if your 4880 is still running Epson inks. Same light you reviewed the prints with?

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
470+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012.




Yes.  Epson inks. Same viewing conditions.  Seems VERY strange to me as well.  I'm certainly not an expert by any means, but I'm very careful and critical of my own work and workflow.  I'm going to see if this is repeatable in further testing. I've ordered some 17x25" sheets.  I still prefer the Canson & Ilford barytas but this does close the gap a bit.

Rand
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