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Author Topic: Tiffs and Jpegs in ACR 7  (Read 3485 times)
GitAmager
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« on: October 28, 2012, 06:07:32 AM »
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I am figthing with my color management. I am presently working with my own files (all Nefs that I open as 16 bit and Prophoto RGB) mixed with Tiffs from a family member (originally Jpegs but I converted them in Bridge to Tiffs) plus tiffs from scanned slides. The last 2 groups are 8bit sRGB. I have set the workflow line to 16 bit and Prophoto RGB in the Camera Raw window and used the same settings in PS itself with the exception that embedded profiles should be preserved. My monitor is an Eizo monitor, sRGB, hardware calibrated.

I am presently working with PS CS5 but CS6 is in the mail and I look forward to working with the new Camera Raw - not the least when editing all the files that I have inherited (a combination of these and my own are to go into photo albums). I want to keep the large color space for my own files to make experiments with later. The new ACR sounds so good. I hope that the Tiffs and the Jpegs can use the full editing spectrum in that as well - they do need some help.

I would find it a great hassle to change the color space in ACR whenever I open a file (I work with the mixture of files sorted chronologically for the photo books purpose).

Now comes my, perhaps very stupid and ignorant questions:

1. What do I get to work with on my monitor when I open these sRGB files with my permanet settings of Prophoto in the workflow line of the Camera Raw?
 
2. Do I edit on an incorrect background which will show later when these files are opened in PS with their embedded files (I am a novice in all this but I have learned that I cannot just convert to Prophoto RGB as this would mean converting from a narrow color space to a much wider)?

Adobe says (I think) to set the same color space in ACR as in PS. I understood that my Raw files do not really get a color space till they enter PS. But then, why set a color space in ACR? Can one tell ACR to use embedded profiles like in PS itself? That would be neat.

I am sorry if these question just shows that this 71 years old grandmother has not understood what it is all about? Can somebody help me? GitAmager.

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jeremypayne
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 09:11:42 AM »
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Any chance you could make the switch from PS/ACR/bridge to Lightroom?
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GitAmager
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 09:20:54 AM »
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Unfortunately no. Have just bougth PS CS6 and don't have Ligthroom. Git.
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deejjjaaaa
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 10:52:39 AM »
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I understood that my Raw files do not really get a color space till they enter PS. But then, why set a color space in ACR? Can one tell ACR to use embedded profiles like in PS itself?

when you open anything in ACR it will be converted to Adobe's internal working color space, which is ProPhoto RGB but with gamma = 1 (linear)... you can't control that, it is so intended by design... what you select in UI in ACR is actually just a color space that will be used on output from ACR once your are done with your work in ACR.
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dmerger
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2012, 11:37:53 AM »
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If your tiffs (including the jpegís you converted to tiffs) have an embedded profile (sRGB or ProPhoto for example), ACR will recognize it. If they donít have an embedded profile, ACR will assume that they are sRGB.  In either case, with your settings in ACR to output 16 bit ProPhoto, then all your tiffs (even if they start as sRGB 8 bit) will be output in 16 bit ProPhoto and have that profile embedded.   What you donít want to do is open in ACR any tiffs or jpegs in ProPhoto without an embedded profile because ACR will incorrectly assume that they are sRGB and likely give you weird, over saturated colors.

As long as your original tiffs and jpegs have embedded profiles, however, I donít see any benefit in converting them in Bridge.  ACR will not change/degrade your original jpegs or tiffs.  ACR is totally nondestructive.  When you output a modified jpeg or tiff from ACR, you output a copy; the original is still intact. 

So, in summary, I donít see any real problem in using the same 16 bit ProPhoto color space for all your ACR outputs.  You wonít gain anything by doings so with your 8 bit sRGB photos, but I donít see any harm.  Just be aware that for some purposes, like for the Web, sRGB is a better option, but if need be you can always output another version (copy) from ACR in 8 bit sRGB.
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Dean Erger
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 03:45:13 PM »
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What you see in the on screen preview in ACR is the colour space and bit depth you have set up in the Workflow Options.  That, as far as I understand it, is also the working colour space of ACR.  It's not, as far as I know, not like Lightroom which has its own working colour space, which is ProPhoto with a linear gamma (aka MelissaRGB).  Not all RAW images will look the same on screen in ACR with different workflow options.

There's no benefit to changing your jpegs and tiffs to a wider colour space.  You're not going to gain anything back.  Similarly, changing the 8 bit files to 16 bit isn't going to give you the benefit of 16 bit files. 

While ACR does open a 'copy', that copy has the same name as the original.  If you save it without changing the filename you will, in fact, overwrite your original file.
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deejjjaaaa
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 04:03:21 PM »
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What you see in the on screen preview in ACR is the colour space and bit depth you have set up in the Workflow Options.  That, as far as I understand it, is also the working colour space of ACR.

working colorspace is always prophoto with linear gamma plus additional color spaces (like Lab) are used to calculate various masks, etc...


  It's not, as far as I know, not like Lightroom which has its own working colour space, which is ProPhoto with a linear gamma (aka MelissaRGB).

melissaRGB (used just for color readouts in LR, at least before - not sure about the very recent LR) does not have a linear gamma

« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:06:08 PM by deejjjaaaa » Logged
RFPhotography
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 04:27:40 PM »
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working colorspace is always prophoto with linear gamma plus additional color spaces (like Lab) are used to calculate various masks, etc...

That's not my understanding.  Please provide reference to Adobe literature where this is outlined.

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melissaRGB (used just for color readouts in LR, at least before - not sure about the very recent LR) does not have a linear gamma


Pardon me, that is correct.  Melissa uses ProPhoto primaries with a 2.2 gamma. 
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deejjjaaaa
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 04:39:15 PM »
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That's not my understanding.  Please provide reference to Adobe literature where this is outlined.

a lot of replies by Eric Chan here and there... for example = http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-users/2011/May/msg00187.html

аnd both ACR/LR are using the same "engine" internally which does 1) reads the data from raw files and performs some initial operations like black level subtraction, raw data linearization if that was encoded non linear, etc 2) demosaick 3) converts to the internal working colorspace = prophoto w/ linear gamma 4) then lets you play w/ UI (wb, exposure, etc, etc).

« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:45:14 PM by deejjjaaaa » Logged
GitAmager
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 07:43:38 PM »
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Thank you for your answer. Since I posted my question I have tried to learn the difference between parametric editing and the editing in PS. Not that I have succeeded completely. I understand that what I see in PS is the translation of my various files into the sRGB of my monitor regardless of which color space I use in PS. I do not understand why Adobe wants me to indicate a color space in ACR but hopefully that does not influence my impression of the files and the result of the editing. I will stop worrying though as it seems I cannot influence what is happening.
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GitAmager
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 07:49:34 PM »
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Thank you very much. All the files I have have embedded profiles. I know that I at the very end of my editing will have to convert a copy of my master files to sRGB if I have to use them for commercial photobooks. So I shall not worry about the setting in the ACR any more!
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GitAmager
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 07:55:34 PM »
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Thank you for your answer. I know I cannot change to a wider color space than the original one and therefore I have also told PS to keep the embedded color space. I have, however, come to believe that a conversion to 16bit migth make the files more tolerant to later edits but I may be wrong. I am still very much a novice in photo editing. But if it does not hurt the files then I shall leave the settings in ACR unchanged - i.e. fitting for my own Raw files, 16bit and ProPhoto RGB.
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deejjjaaaa
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 11:29:16 PM »
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I do not understand why Adobe wants me to indicate a color space in ACR
because you need to decide to which color space your output (result of your work in ACR) shall be converted based on what you intend to do w/ that output next.
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GitAmager
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2012, 07:19:04 AM »
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Thank you. I have made a few trials - which I probably should have done before asking my question. I have learned from that but am sorry to have wasted the time of all of you.

I find, as you told me, that the file opens in the color space set in the ACR: I.e. if I enter an sRGB tiff in an ACR which is set to ProPhoto RGB it will also open as Prophoto in PS.

Only if ACR is set to sRGB and PS to Prophoto RGB will PS ask me wether to keep the embedded profile or not. If I treat my Raws this way, they will be sRGB - and PS will tell me that the embedded profile is different from the working profile. And I do not want to edit my Raws as sRGB.

If I set both to Prophoto RGB the sRGB files that I enter in the workflow will all end up as Prophoto in PS and be edited as such. The question is wether this is harmful or not??? I realize that the files allways shall have the colors they were born with (in the narrow color space of sRGB).

I fear that I shall have to perform first the editing of the sRGB files before proceeding to the ProPhoto files as I do not trust myself to open the settings in ACR each time I go to a new file. Irritating but probably necessary?? I would have like to have edited files of both types sorted together chronologically.

I have to add that this is all PS CS5 as my CS6 is still in the mail.
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