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Author Topic: Sony announces F55 and F5  (Read 3375 times)
Bern Caughey
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« on: October 30, 2012, 02:11:12 AM »
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http://www.fdtimes.com/2012/10/30/sony-f55-and-f5/

And (once again) RED aims to steal the thunder.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87757-Everything-changes-IMPORTANT-post

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Bern Caughey
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 07:46:05 PM »
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Video: Introducing the PMW-F55

www.sony.nl/pro/lang/en/nl/article/broadcast-professional-camcorders-pmw-f55-video
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 04:07:46 AM »
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Still trying to understand these cameras.

Do they reach the level.. 'an affordable camera that works'?

I am deeply suspicious of Sony's alphabet soup of codec, cards and the like

Maybe that is super intelligent and makes a tool that fits all.. or maybe they still dont get how simple a decent camera can be

..like a BMC with a bigger chip and ND

Or like a Red where the framerate/crop engine-power/price trade off are all pretty clear

What annoys me is that 'Raw' is seen as some mystical cine only thing.

To me raw is more relevant to more lo budget/on the fly shooting.

--

Ergonomics?

Earphone plug looks terrible and the onboard controls would seem not to fall to hand at all, I guess even th C300 is more controllable with the eye in the finder..

S

« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 04:09:36 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Bern Caughey
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 08:45:30 AM »
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I like much of their concept, & of course the F55's "Global Shutter", but where's the footage?
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 09:09:25 AM »
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Can you lay their concept out to me as you understand it?

Footage.. indeed I want to see..

-no alaising at 2k
-a file shot on daylight settings under tungsten lights corrected
-a properly corrected high DR shot

To be fair on Sony in my price bracket I believe they have delivered the best of a bad bunch, the FS100 and EX1 are sharp - but the colour leaves a lot to desire and Ive not seen much better from the F3

Of course all video people are rubbish at colour so that is not suprising! Smiley

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Bern Caughey
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 09:36:49 AM »
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I like the placement of the EVFs, & how there's just a single cable needed to make the whole thing work. Also how the modules attach & doesn't need a rod system to support add-ons. Baseplate/shoulderpad, & batteries look good too.

The built-in codecs appear very useful, but a flavor of 422 ProRes would have been nice.

More flavors of expensive proprietary media are much less attractive, as is the lack of pricing.

The entire system is relatively compact, & seems ready to work. Modular like Red, but less weight.

On another note the FS700's Raw module just got a lot less interesting. Seems clunky, & pricey (compared to Scarlet), but need to wait & see how it plays out.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 10:38:50 AM »
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The EVF is IMO still too far back, and as a leftie useless to me anyway
But im happy to have it removable unlike the EX1/F3 where it is just a liability
Yep I bust my EX1 EVF off.

The OLED one is 720p which gives one the pleasure of still not being able to focus unless there is off area focus check while rolling presented in a non camera wobbling manner
No one will ever actually hit 4k res - because 90% of footy will be OOF IMO

I like it but Im still not quite getting a 'feel'

S





 
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 11:45:05 AM »
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The non-OLED EVF looks a bit goofy with it's mirror (wonder who designed that) & does extend too far back. Seems the OLED will be better, but may still need a 3rd party mount.

While Raw is always intriguing, many high-end productions will still rely on other options, & the F55 needs to compete with Alexa. This is where a flavor of ProRes would have been welcome. Nobody is clamoring for another codec to transcode, & who knows how long 3rd party software development will take.
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bcooter
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 01:42:57 PM »
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The non-OLED EVF looks a bit goofy with it's mirror (wonder who designed that) & does extend too far back. Seems the OLED will be better, but may still need a 3rd party mount.

While Raw is always intriguing, many high-end productions will still rely on other options, & the F55 needs to compete with Alexa. This is where a flavor of ProRes would have been welcome. Nobody is clamoring for another codec to transcode, & who knows how long 3rd party software development will take.




I think it's interesting how we view things.

If Sony had produced the RED camera system and had it in place and a new startup like RED had produced these two Sony cameras, the critics would have eaten RED alive.

But just like the Arri is established in the mind of film DPs, Sony is established in video so overall the impression is cool, looks great.

The reality is in my use, having used Sony SD engs, early Sony hdv engs, to owning the FS100, sony files looks like video and the color is just a nightmare to make it film like.  

A lot of people complain about having to process out raw to prorezz or some other format, but in our work, it takes us 1/4 the time to get a good pleasing prorezz file ready to edit from the RED's than it does to transcode Sony, or Canon footage to prorezz, do some kind of third party one light to make corrections for a proxy file and then go back after edit and round trip the footage to di-vinci for final grading.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that the people that complain about RED raw don't shoot multi cam on the fly where they have to match footage and don't own a RED rocket or two.  If they did, they probably wouldn't have the same impression.

And as a sidenote, the R1's produce three sizes of proezz to use as proxy's out of camera and when you add to the fact most NLE's now accept 4k RED raws ready to edit, Premier even will transcode on the fly, The Raw issue, is no issue.  Actually, I find that anyone that thinks RAW is an issue has been fed misinformation.

Regardless, I hope the Sony's are good, though I still have questions about color and file format, but I know today going into production in the next few weeks, I have no worries about the RED's performing exactly as we need.  

Still, as Morgan said DP's from video to film will still sing the praises of Arri and Sony regardless of total costs, regardless  of what the file looks like out of camera, but DP's don't set in front of a computer and grade any file.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 01:56:33 PM by bcooter » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 02:02:12 PM »
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Coots. Would I be correct in thinking that you dont 'round trip'?

My intended raw workflow is.. (simplified)
get the rushes,
correct,
output to edit format,
edit,
out to delivery format

With a BMC and thunderbird there is some chance that the raws would never have to 'touch' my computer because Id pull that Edit ready straight off the SSD in a caddy and backup via the second thunderbird port

And maybe scarlet too?

That is close to how I work with C1/Stills.
This workflow is cost effective/possible because Im super fast in C1 (having used for a decade unlike the videoratti) so dont mind correcting stuff that will not make the cut.

Video people.. they 'round trip' with colour done last after edit (often by a third party) which means the raw rushes need to be 'online' all through the process (or tied with some proxies) right to client sign off - I can see this is a horrid data load , especially if there are months until client sign off

That seems why raw is a 'no brainer' to us, while unappealing to the video behemoth?

Not to mention they all roll for an age before anything happens..

S




« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 02:40:03 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 02:15:31 PM »
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My latest project. Shot in mixed/fading light, also a lot behind glass with a green tint, and some with a brown tint, and also VND filtration that also swings the colour and two cameras
https://vimeo.com/52509877

While I feel its a leap up in shooting/cutting, I could only say the colours are once again 'strange and unworkable'. Im sure with a DNG shooter I could deliver my vision effortlessly

S
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 02:18:27 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Bern Caughey
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 03:45:01 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter link=topic=71890.msg570947#msg570947 date=1351708977 DP's don't set in front of a computer and grade any file.
[/quote

That's exactly the problem. DPs often are not even invited to grading secessions anymore.

And Producers readily hire DITs, who all seem to bring RedRockets, but won't pay them to process out Raw overnight.

Factor in young editors equipped with MacMinis, & non-color managed monitors, who also double as colorists, & suddenly burning in the look becomes quite tempting.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 03:55:44 PM by Bern Caughey » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 04:25:49 PM »
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Bern,

Client's of all stripes don't want to pay to process out still images either, but to what point do we all shoot jpegs and ship a thumb drive?

Let's face it, 95% of all video (god I hate that term) everyone, shoots, edits, effects, purposes and displays is on the web on some computer device so in a way, grading for these purposes on a broadcast screen rather than a non calibrated I mac (where 90% of the play will be seen) might be a mistake.

Still a cooked in file is ok if that's what you want, but if DP's really wanted that, they all would have shot transparency instead of negs back in the film days.

Morgan,


It depends on the project and client.

For a client that really understands that the edit is just that, the edit, minus finish color, minus effects, then we can either use the RED 1's prorezz files out of camera, or do a very quick, semi flat one light out of cinex.

For other clients (now most of our clients), we need to get as close to possible on virtually all of the footage.

They just can't get past the feeling that multi cam shoots don't match, or the color is not deep and rich.  (if that's the look), so we use eithe Da-Vinci or Cine-x to produce a prorezz file that is very close.

Regardless in my use, I've found the Raw file is 1/2 the effort of a baked in file, from any camera we've used.

I've tested it time and time again and it's just not possible to run the risk of shooting a baked in file crushed, colored and close to final.  I always means we have to go back and produce a flatter file for our edit and then color when the the edit is locked.

Everyone works differently.

IMO

BC
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 05:04:15 PM »
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other clients (now most of our clients), we need to get as close to possible on virtually all of the footage.
Regardless in my use, I've found the Raw file is 1/2 the effort of a baked in file, from any camera we've used.

My feeling entirely.
Which is why Im not 'feeling' the sony

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 01:55:06 AM »
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Bern.

I feel that you might thing you are hitting some blind 'red fanboy' thing here.

Please stay engaged in the chat

Im just pretty confused as to what Sony is offering and why it might be cool.

Im brand agnostic (beyond nikon glass which I have a sack of and need to work)

Also ive never enjoyed sony colour (apart from my BBC chums 1990s $80k SD Beta cam which seemed pretty nice)

S



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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2012, 02:05:22 AM »
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Quote from: sony
The new PMW-F55 and PMW-F5 CineAlta 4K ..r HD/2K*/QFHD*/4K (PMW- F55) and 2K*/HD (PMW- -F5) production. ..featuring Sony’s new XAVC MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 format, the SR codec (MPEG4 SStP) .. High Definition XDCAM 50Mbps 4:2:2 codec. ..Sony’s New SxS media, SxS PRO+(Plus ) – .. record XAVC in HD High Frame Rate and in 4K at up to 60fps (in the PMW-PMW-F55), and XAVC HD High Frame Rate in the PMW-F5.

..on-board recording onto SxS PRO+, the PMW-F55 and PMW- F5 .. new AXS-R5 RAW recorder. ..up to 240fps** (PMW- F55) and up to 120fps** (PMW- F5) can be captured as 4K RAW files on newly developed AXS memory.


Alphabet soup?

Now being sensible do you know anything about the SR codec, which a 220MBS seems 'enough' and maybe a variant of my chums good colour betacam?

I find this an interesting image, two '1080' cameras from Sony F3 and EX1 (I find my EX1 very sharp as this seems to confirm)

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachments/sony-xdcam-f3-cinealta/21759d1299146404-aliasing-moire-pmw-f3-ex1r-zp2.jpg

Makes one a little concerned for the '2k' aqisition'

S

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 02:27:37 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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bcooter
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 12:58:06 PM »
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To be clear, I'm not a red or any camera companies fan boy, I think I've logged onto RED User Net about 10 times and never get past the first post of "Way to go Jim", also since I pay retail, I don't owe anyone . . . anything.

Regardless, we bought our First RED One for multiple reasons.

First it was the only 4k, raw professional camera we could buy that was under a gazzillion dollars.  It was hard to get as RED was in transition to the Epic and the R1's with mx sensors were backordered with a long list.

I'd heard all the horror stories, but in talking to real users that worked day in and day out, most if not all of the wrinkles had been ironed out.

Everyone I talked to had great reliability and we experienced the same.  We bought our second R1 for two camera shots and for backup.

The scarlet I bought or one reason which was to have a smaller footprint on those still jobs where multiple R-1's would cause us location fees and permits to double or even go 10x up.  The Scarlet looks like a still camera.

I also bought the R-1 because we tried the dslr route with the 5d2 and spent 5 grand just making a kit that would semi- work though never was happy with the 5d2 unless it was high iso available light shooting.

We added a Sony FS100 just for it's autofocus capabilities for behind the scenes and for shooting quick c cam shots of detail or fast moving subjects.

I actually like the FS100, it autofocuses really, really well, but I find the color in most instances to be a complete nightmare.  If we have time to light, test, light again, test, then shoot the fs100 works fine, sometimes almost impossible to tell from the RED files but one slight change in angle, color temp or lighting and we had to start all over again.  Also the fs100 will blow highlights so it must be shot 1/2 stop dark, then pumped up in post.

Now nobody makes the camera I really want which would be a modular type of scarlet, with great autofocus,  less weight, better screen (non glossy) real xlr inputs, some kind of standard ssd media and the film look file of an R1 with a price tag under 10 grand fully kitted out.

Also real is lenses at f2 minimum,  and a mount that will go forward in the future.  I have my worries about the e-mount, or the Canon mount or any mount that is non standard for motion cameras.  Nikon and PL will probably go on forever, but I have my doubts about the others.

IMO

BC

P.S.The Meisler module for the Scarlet and Epic does allow prorezz output on recording and on the R1's you get three prorezz files for proxy upon recording.
It's 13 grand, but then again an Epic with this module is still cheaper than an Arri. 

Going forward, I think with the newer nle's prorezz or any 2k type of codec is not necessary as premier and fcpx take straight red footage that transcodes on the fly.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 01:05:36 PM by bcooter » Logged
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