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Author Topic: Leaf Credo USB 3  (Read 11640 times)
Don Libby
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« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2012, 03:40:58 PM »
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This conversation has lasted way longer than it would have if it were in person.

Going for a beer now...
 Tongue
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2012, 12:30:47 AM »
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I can't figure out why someone who doesn't own or use a product would go to so much trouble to raise petty issues like this one over and over again.  It's not like the  Credo or IQ backs don't work.
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HarperPhotos
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« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2012, 01:50:44 AM »
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Hello,

Personally I donít think it is a petty issue.

How can a manufacturer advertise a feature in its product and it doesnít work full stop.

If a car manufacturer did this the would have law suits thrown at them.

I am a happy Leaf user so please donít call me a troll or that I have a Nikon agenda as I donít but there advertising is simply misleading.

This is all I am going to say on this matter.

Good day

Simon
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Simon Harper
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« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2012, 03:05:07 AM »
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Hello,

Personally I donít think it is a petty issue.

How can a manufacturer advertise a feature in its product and it doesnít work full stop.

If a car manufacturer did this the would have law suits thrown at them.

I am a happy Leaf user so please donít call me a troll or that I have a Nikon agenda as I donít but there advertising is simply misleading.

This is all I am going to say on this matter.

Good day

Simon

Simon,

I agree with you  and if I was one that bought the back with usb3 as a large part of my decision, I'd be pissed.

Then again I think all of us have learned to take all digital claims with some caution. 

I don't think it's intentionally misleading, (don't know for sure) but I think that a lot of companies rush product to market only to find out somewhere down the line of 1's and 0's a feature won't work.

Not that any of this makes it right but I can name nearly every device that has a digital component to miss the mark from introduction advertising to final delivery.  I have owned products from Apple, Canon, RED, Sony (it's a long list) that never made every feature "really" work. 

In regards to cars did you ever drive the first BMW's I drive vehicles, or Ford's latest touch system?   Just turning the heat on and off is borderline dangerous. 

I have one high performance GM product that had a factory sold turbo upgrade that costs me 8 months, one transmission, 12 trips to the dealer and finally a few thousand in custom fabrication just to make it work.

Once again, this shouldn't happen and I'm not naming those products as bad or use them as an excuse, but I find it's just not that uncommon.

IMO

BC
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KLaban
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« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2012, 05:51:32 AM »
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Put it like this, if I bought into a system on the promise of specification that didn't materialise I'd be more than a bit pissed. And I'm not just referring to Leaf here, there have been other instances of this from other MFD manufacturers.

That said, and with the knowledge that this happens, I'd now be inclined to take any promised features with a pinch of salt and not to buy until they are delivered.
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Gigi
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« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2012, 06:35:59 AM »
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Didn't they used to call this "a tempest in a teapot"?

These small manufacturers put together a complicated product, they outline the specs for their marketing folks, not everything is totally in synch... what else is new? 99% of the product is as marketed, and yes, they overstated the "better than film" 'cause as we know, you have to say what film, what size, where, and under what conditions...but who really puts down $$ on the basis of a marketing sheet?

One could imagine a conversation with a dealer: the customer is trying out a new back at a store and asks "what is this?" pointing the USB3 port. The salesperson replies: "its upcoming and not working yet". 'nuf said?

Emphasis on small manufacturers - they aren't Ford or GM - these small groups are running around trying to make ends meet, and while they should  be more clear in their marketing material ("provisional, for future use"), they probably are just making the decision to let this go. Thank goodness Phase has kept Leaf alive, as that's the more important issue. Thank you Phase, and if that means a wee bit of sloppiness in their marketing material for Leaf (they probably aren't throwing their best marketing people there), well, that's OK with me. They still make a great product, one that delivers the goods.
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Geoff
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« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2012, 07:02:28 AM »
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This is quite typical in business-to-business marketing. You claim to have things that are not yet implemented.

In some business it is quite typical to put all sorts of features in marketing material just to test if there is customer interest, and not until you get interest you start to implement. It is sort of okay, because everyone involved knows how it works.

MF has been an isolated market with their own rules and expectations. If you get a version 1.0 digital back you are supposed to expect that there are bugs in the firmware, that you as the customer is involved in the testing, and that support from a good dealer is required. You may also need to take some features with a grain of salt, until you see for yourself if they really work.

With mass-market products like Canon or Nikon DSLRs this kind of behavior is impossible. It would be too much support overhead of releasing not-thoroughly-tested-products, and you'd get too many consumers upset if you don't deliver the features stated in the marketing material. But with the huge volume of sales comes large testing and development budgets, so you have much better possibility to fulfill this than when you make small volume products like digital backs.

Now when the image quality gap is smaller than ever MFDB makers may need to think this over though...
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2012, 09:56:50 AM »
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Yes, let me clarify.... if I had bought one of these expecting to use only USB3 then I'd say it was a legitimate issue.   But if I had spent most of my time on LuLa posting about how much better the D800 is than any medium format back is and I started a post complaining about the lack of USB3 on a product that I would never use when it has a tethering solution, then yes, I'd call that petty.   It's a shame when someone who has a lot of knowledge about photography wants to spend his time on posts like this, feigning some kind of consumer watch dog,  instead of sharing something really valuable like working experiences with people, lighting or camera gear.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2012, 10:33:12 AM »
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Just to be clear it was very well known that buying a IQ back that USB 3 was NOT and I repeat NOT available at the announcement of its IQ back. I bought the IQ 160 long after the IQ 180 was announced and it was still well known this feature was not available. This came from Phase itself, dealers and of course on the forums. It was no secret at all it was not ready to be used. I cant confirm as i do not remember if it was brought up on the Credo backs or not as i did not pay much attention to it at the time and Firewire 800 was the go to tethered connection anyway. My best guess USB 3 would not speed up tethering by any appreciable amount since Firewire 800 on the IQ back is extremely fast out of the gate ( other bottlenecks are more the issue). Also no Apple product had USB 3 available anyway ( outside a PCI board on a MP) up until very recently so for many of us we could not even begin to put it to use. Now not sure of the hold up and I am certainly sure it is of a technical nature that a hurdle is trying to be climbed and I won't curse Phase or not on it since it was build as a future connection right out of the gate on announcement. This is what i at least remember from those days but I don't necessarily disagree that it should be out by now. Honestly not sure of the holdup or technical issues they have to deal with it but honestly I have USB 3 on my Nikon and its not great shakes either as it is pretty limited to 15 ft and i have had some cable issues as well as some just flat out do not work at all. Even with simple card readers i went through about 3 already that just would not connect. I have several just sitting in a drawer. One good thing to remember it is a two connection back which many cams are not anyway. I actually don't know of a back or cam that has two distinct different tethering connections. I could be wrong here but i really can't think of one. Phase and Credo owners are not sitting here holding there dicks( pardon me ladies) in there hands waiting for tethering, they do have a reliable option outside of USB 3. I have a great 30 ft Firewire 800 to 800 cable that works awesome on a IQ back, i cant say that for USB 3 as i cant get past 15 ft on my Nikon.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 11:01:07 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Don Libby
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« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2012, 11:29:49 AM »
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Guy's right.  I completely forgot that when Phase released the IQ back they specifically stated that USB3 was an additional feature.  The way I see it is that Phase knew they wanted to add a second tethering option and rather that wait until they had all the kinks worked out they inserted the plug in from the get go; that way it's there waiting for the solution. 

I don't tether so it's never been a huge problem for me however I can see the need and thankfully there's the firewire.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2012, 03:28:26 PM »
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Yes, let me clarify.... if I had bought one of these expecting to use only USB3 then I'd say it was a legitimate issue.   But if I had spent most of my time on LuLa posting about how much better the D800 is than any medium format back is and I started a post complaining about the lack of USB3 on a product that I would never use when it has a tethering solution, then yes, I'd call that petty.   It's a shame when someone who has a lot of knowledge about photography wants to spend his time on posts like this, feigning some kind of consumer watch dog,  instead of sharing something really valuable like working experiences with people, lighting or camera gear.

I think this post really sums up this thread.

Nick-T
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tho_mas
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« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2012, 04:16:46 PM »
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I think this post really sums up this thread.
me too.
And if you want to stop Fred posting other childish stuff like this... simply do not reply to his posts. We don't need an "ignore button". Simply do not reply at all... and things will calm down.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:30:34 PM by tho_mas » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2012, 05:10:48 PM »
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Guy's right.  I completely forgot that when Phase released the IQ back they specifically stated that USB3 was an additional feature.  The way I see it is that Phase knew they wanted to add a second tethering option and rather that wait until they had all the kinks worked out they inserted the plug in from the get go; that way it's there waiting for the solution.  

I don't tether so it's never been a huge problem for me however I can see the need and thankfully there's the firewire.


Well wouldn't it be simple, nice, honest and clear if MamiyaLeaf just stated on it's website that it isn't working yet.
Seems very simple to me.

It's really rather sad that you all get your nickers in a twist that someone points this out.

If you all just didn't kiss Phase and Mamiya Leaf's touchie you may actually end up with a better product and  a better company. Wink

What would you all have had to say if Canon, Hasselblad or Nikon had added HDMI to a camera, listed it as a feature, but not have it working?

The interesting thing is that I get a lot of messages from people considering MF thanking me for pointing out much of the marketing and fan boy BS
and blatant miss information. Pointing these people to side by side comparissons and documented BS leads them to not buy into MFD.
With the recent leaps in quality in other formats it really doesn't take much..... rather satisfying I have to admit after my experience with the DF system.
 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 05:54:05 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2012, 06:41:33 PM »
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I have a great 30 ft Firewire 800 to 800 cable that works awesome on a IQ back, i cant say that for USB 3 as i cant get past 15 ft on my Nikon.

This works for me:

http://www.siig.com/it-products/usb/extenders/usb-3-0-active-repeater-cable-20m.html

60ft. Very nice build, but a bit expensive. I have a shorter one too. I think it's 10m 30ft

Works with my friends motion capture gear too that needs very consistent performance.

Just be sure to use this to go into the extender:
Type A to Micro-B cable

http://www.siig.com/it-products/cables/usb/usb-3-0/superspeed-usb-type-a-m-to-micro-b-1m.html
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 06:47:07 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Kitty
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« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2012, 08:12:00 PM »
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Thanks Fred for sharing your experience here especially about USB3.0
I am MFB user. I may not agree with everything e.g. DSLR D800.
But I learn from everyone everyday. Thanks everyone for sharing your idea.
I believe USB3.0 will be standard in every computer in future. Just when.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2012, 09:28:13 PM »
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When you only rent use firewire800
The images are the same.....

But as mentioned before you probably won't rent but just want to rant Wink
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FredBGG
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« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2012, 09:46:49 PM »
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When you only rent use firewire800
The images are the same.....

But as mentioned before you probably won't rent but just want to rant Wink

True Firewire 800 works..... So do cards.....

However I have just one question for you seeing you lend your name and face to Mamiya Leaf



Don't you think it would be more clear, honest and simple to state on the Mamiya Leaf website that USB 3
is not supported yet?

Simple question Wink
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2012, 10:39:52 PM »
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Of course it would, but I don't see a reason to rant about it.
Maybe they could add (future proof with usb3 to be activated)
FireWire 800 works flawless and is available on all machines.
It would be different if the image quality or speed was better on usb3.

I would love to be able to work with usb3 because the cables are less stiff and I fly a lot so everything I can save on space and weight is a big plus.

But I'm just waiting for it.
Anyway when you spend that amount of money on something I expect you to do your homework and when you ask a dealer they will say that it's not supported yet, same with Moire, when I started MF I knew all the pluses and minuses, I'm not spending that amount of money without knowing everything from a-z.

So for me it's just a matter of wanting to find something and rant about from your side, you already made 100% clear that you like the d800 more than MF (and that's ok) so why bother...... I'm working with my DSLR, Fuji, MF etc. and choosing which one I need for the end result, my end result is exactly the same with FireWire or USB.

And if I don't care,why would someone that doesn't shoot the format anyway ?
Not saying I would love for it to work, but I can spend my time better than worrying about it, and I OWN one Wink
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2012, 10:40:52 PM »
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Oh and one more thing.
I don't lend my name to leaf or phase one.
I pay for my gear, I don't get paid for the images they use from me, I'm just a very enthusiastic user. 
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »
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Hi Fred,

It is just a stupid question and also a disrespectful one. Frank is one of the good guys sharing his experience, he has been an RZ user for eternal times.

I don't think it is OK to jump on any on these forums, just because you have some bad feelings about some product.

Best regards
Erik




Don't you think it would be more clear, honest and simple to state on the Mamiya Leaf website that USB 3
is not supported yet?

Simple question Wink
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