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Author Topic: Rock  (Read 2557 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2012, 03:21:46 PM »
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Russ, we get it.

You do not like, nor respect landscape photography. We, older forum members, know you think landscape photography genre is inferior to other genres in photography. We also know you think landscape photography is inferior to landscape painting. Fair enough, and you are not the only one.

Which then raises the question why you bother commenting on it at all, when what you say can be often summarized as "Just another irrelevant landscape photo. So what?" That catches newer members by surprise, given that they've come to a site called Luminous Landscape.

I often admit my lack of understanding of street photography, which happens to be your favorite genre. Yet I do not comment on those with "Just another street photo. So what?"
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Slobodan

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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2012, 04:00:17 PM »
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Slobodan, I guess it's never occurred to you that though making steel engravings might not be your favorite way to produce visual art, that fact doesn't necessarily preclude you from liking and admiring steel engravings. Yes, I think landscape painting can produce results superior to what landscape photography can produce, for several reasons, which I think I've already listed, but just because my favorite photographic genre is street photography doesn't mean I can't appreciate good landscape photography. I happen to think Giacomo Puccini is the greatest composer of all time, but I very much love and appreciate Beethoven, Gershwin, etc., etc., and I know enough about music to be able to distinguish good music from bad music.

You seem to feel that your photographic expertise is confined strictly to a single genre: landscape, and from what you're telling me, perhaps it is.

Mine's not.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 06:13:18 PM by RSL » Logged

marvpelkey
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2012, 06:36:45 PM »
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Russ,

No need to apologize, but I do appreciate it.

I understand your frustration with watching User Critiques going downhill however, although this site has some very good photographers, there  are those who produce those pretty shots you dislike, while on their quest to get better and perhaps one day produce an image that actually "speaks". For some, part of that process entails putting out images for constructive critique. I too, see little value, other than perhaps an ego stroke, in comments such as "nice image", but sometimes that's the reaction by the viewer (in fact, you stated similar in your response to another image with "Like em all. Great shots". So even the best of you occasionally gets caught up in that. And I must admit that I'm not sure every image, to be successful, needs symbolism, analogy, metaphor etc, although I have to give that more thought, I suppose.

As for me, I promise not to post any "pretty shots"  Grin

Regards,

Marv
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RSL
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2012, 06:57:02 PM »
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Marv, I said, "I like 'em all," because all of them are good street shots. Seamus is very, very good at this. If you're going to do street you can learn a lot from him. He blows it once in a while, and sometimes I think he's too quick to post something, but he's one of the very best street shooters on LuLa.

There's nothing wrong with pretty. The problem is with something that's merely pretty. If you'd like to use a shot to decorate a wall there's nothing wrong with merely pretty either. I see tons of that kind of thing every time I go to an "art fair," and it sells well, especially when the color saturation has been driven to the Marlboro ad level.

But there's a difference between photographs that are decorative patterns or mementoes of a tourist trip, and art. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. A really good photograph gives you a feeling -- a jolt -- you can't put into words. And bottom line, that's the problem with trying to describe what makes a photograph good. You can't do it. It's like Potter Stewart trying to define hardcore pornography. He said he couldn't define it, but he knew it when he saw it. It's the same thing with any good visual art.

And as far as being critical of someone who's trying to learn, how is it going to help him if he posts some crap that never should have been posted and everyone says, "It's great," "Fine shot," "+1,"?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2012, 07:18:07 PM »
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Russ, it looks like my "pretty tourist" shot (Just Another Parisian Afternoon) riled you up beyond its significance. I clearly stated there is no pretension (to be art), just a lovely moment. Or I missed the memo that all shots posted in that forum must be art?
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Slobodan

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marvpelkey
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2012, 10:19:36 PM »
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Russ,

I agree with pretty well everything you said, in particular the point about a real good image giving the viewer that "feeling". And I also agree that a posted piece of crap should not receive "nice shot" "+1" etc. However, presumably the piece of crap is not so to the poster (or I'm sure he would not have posted), and often until someone provides him the constructive criticism that helps him understand that it's a piece of crap; why it;s a piece of crap and perhaps provides some pointers on how to capture the next image without it being a piece of crap, he will continue to take the same kind of images.

Regards,

Marv
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RSL
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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2012, 07:34:39 AM »
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Russ, it looks like my "pretty tourist" shot (Just Another Parisian Afternoon) riled you up beyond its significance. I clearly stated there is no pretension (to be art), just a lovely moment.

Just off hand I don't remember whether or not I commented on your Pont Neuf picture, but I liked it very much. I hope you were thinking of HCB's version when you made the shot.

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Or I missed the memo that all shots posted in that forum must be art?

You're right! It makes sense, Slobodan. Any thinking tourist would rush to post his personal photographic mementoes on a forum titled "User Critiques."
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RSL
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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2012, 07:36:29 AM »
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Russ,

. . .presumably the piece of crap is not so to the poster (or I'm sure he would not have posted), and often until someone provides him the constructive criticism that helps him understand that it's a piece of crap; why it;s a piece of crap and perhaps provides some pointers on how to capture the next image without it being a piece of crap, he will continue to take the same kind of images.

Exactly, Marv. But the criticism has to be there, and lately it hasn't been there on User Critiques.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2012, 12:01:42 PM »
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... Any thinking tourist would rush to post his personal photographic mementoes on a forum titled "User Critiques."

Sorry to disappoint you Russ, but ALL my photographs are my "personal photographic mementoes."

Whether I am a tourist in Paris, or tourist in New York, or tourist in U.S. National Parks, or look like a tourist in my hometown, I shoot not on specs, not in an attempt to create art, but I shoot what is around me, whatever catches my fancy, recording my personal experience, moments of my life, turning it into my "personal photographic mementoes." In that sense, aren't all amateur photographs mementoes? Souvenirs of moments of our lives?




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Slobodan

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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2012, 12:26:11 PM »
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I find the discussion interesting, but I think it has gotten a bit lost in the weeds... and there is a whole part of this forum dedicated to "is it art?". Ultimately, debating about if an image is art is not particularly relevant because at some level that is more about the viewer than the image. The question (as I see it) is if it is an effective image. That includes components of technical, compositional, and subject selection and how they all combine. Stating what works with an image, what doesn't and suggestions on how to approach it won't really change that much how people define art.

I'm somewhat new to this site, but lurked around the edges reading posts for a while before posting any of my own images. I get a lot out of the comments posted on all images regarding technical points, composition, and subject selection. I have received useful comments on the few photos I have posted for critique.

As to the contents of the critiques, perhaps a "sticky" post at the top of the forum giving guidelines and recommendations on how to post, and what to expect and what to contribute would help focus feedback. Guidelines might include pointers on numbers of images to submit for comment at a time (1 or 2, not 78 unless winnowing for a gallery show, etc), what types of comments to provide (e.g. instead of saying, "nice job" provide specifics about what worked; or, "image leaves me flat because the elements are disjointed and the image fails to convey a narrative or relationship among the elements").

Just my 2 cents... as a recognized noob to this forum.




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RSL
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2012, 12:36:49 PM »
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Sorry to disappoint you Russ, but ALL my photographs are my "personal photographic mementoes."

Whether I am a tourist in Paris, or tourist in New York, or tourist in U.S. National Parks, or look like a tourist in my hometown, I shoot not on specs, not in an attempt to create art, but I shoot what is around me, whatever catches my fancy, recording my personal experience, moments of my life, turning it into my "personal photographic mementoes." In that sense, aren't all amateur photographs mementoes? Souvenirs of moments of our lives?

Not at all. From the very beginning the people you call "amateurs" have been the ones who've created photographic art. Many of them later became professionals, meaning they made a living from what had been an amateur pursuit. Remember, from your high school Latin: amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant, the conjugation of the verb "amor," to love.That's the root of the word "amateur," Slobodan. Amateurs are people who do the thing because they love it, not because it pays them a buck.

The only time I shoot momentoes is when my wife asks for them. The rest of the time I'm trying to create art. The failures far outnumber the successes and I'll never sell enough to cover my costs, but that's to be expected. What you just told me gives me a whole new outlook on your own work. I always thought you were trying to create art. Now I understand.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2012, 01:19:54 PM »
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I find attempts to create art quite futile. You can't go out and say "today I am going to create art." It does not work that way. The most you can do is to try to express what's been brewing inside you, itching to get out, to the best of your abilities, and then let others decide if that is art.
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Slobodan

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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2012, 01:31:42 PM »
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Right. You don't just go out today and say "today I'm going to create art." You go out every day with a camera in your hand and LOOK. You throw frames around your environment as you pass through it. When things come together in one of those frames you lift your camera and shoot. I've quoted HCB maybe too many times, but I'll do it again: "Photographing is nothing. Looking is everything."

Others don't decide for me what's art, Slobodan. I decide what's art.

And I'm really sorry to hear that you find attempts to create art so futile. I don't find it futile at all.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2012, 02:04:48 PM »
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...  I decide what's art.

Then you surely must be an artist. I am just a lowly amateur photographer.
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Slobodan

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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2012, 03:33:28 PM »
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I'm an amateur too, but I'm a long way from lowly.
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