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Author Topic: Curves over sliders  (Read 7384 times)
AndrewMcCormick
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« on: November 08, 2012, 11:23:15 AM »
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In LR, can one technically be able to accomplish everything in the Basic WB and Tone with curves?
I just wonder if it's more efficient to learn how to control one curve more than up and down and all around with the sliders?
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JeanMichel
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 12:06:02 PM »
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Hi,
I find that the following the LR's team protocol of using the controls fin the order they are laid-out works best. I do however do go the the Lens Correction panel and pick my lens presets first; then back to the Basic panel. I really only use the Tone Curve to tweak Soft Proofs. Much of what I learned for how to best use LR I owe to the LR tutorials from here.
Jean-Michel
 
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RFPhotography
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 12:16:52 PM »
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The sliders in the Basic Panel and the curve in the Tone Curve panel do different things.  While you may be able to use one or the other and not both, the two aren't substitutes for each other.
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Schewe
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 12:25:37 PM »
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In LR, can one technically be able to accomplish everything in the Basic WB and Tone with curves?

No...the Basic panel of Process Version 2012 has image adaptive logic for highlight recovery and shadow boosting that can not be duplicated using curves. Curves as still useful but more for a precise finesse instead of trying to do the heavy lifting when tone mapping.
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AndrewMcCormick
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 01:14:25 PM »
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Thanks for the replies.  Just always looking for a faster and better way to work.

No...the Basic panel of Process Version 2012 has image adaptive logic for highlight recovery and shadow boosting that can not be duplicated using curves. Curves as still useful but more for a precise finesse instead of trying to do the heavy lifting when tone mapping.
That's exactly what I wanted to know.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 07:33:45 PM »
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The sliders in the Basic Panel and the curve in the Tone Curve panel do different things.  While you may be able to use one or the other and not both, the two aren't substitutes for each other.

By "not both", are you saying that the sliders and tone controls cannot be used on the same image?  If so, why?

....or am I misreading your statement?

John
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John
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2012, 09:18:51 PM »
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There is nothing to stop you from using both. Generally, starting with the sliders, adding some curve if it seems to be useful, then, if necessary, adjusting the sliders again.

Jeff Schewe probably has more experience with all of this than anyone else on this board, go back  a few updates and re-read his.

Alan
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jrsforums
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 09:37:22 PM »
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I'd really like to hear Bob's reasoning.

John
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John
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 10:39:28 PM »
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I'm interested also.

Alan
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stamper
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 03:44:40 AM »
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Me too.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 05:44:44 AM »
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By "not both", are you saying that the sliders and tone controls cannot be used on the same image?  If so, why?

....or am I misreading your statement?

Hi John,

It's most likely the latter. Bob probably intended to say you may not need to use both to come closer to a more desirable result, but they can have a markedly different effect on the image data.

The slider controls tweak not only the brighness level that their name suggests, but they adjust also local feature contrast and color in those regions while preserving edges (= adaptive tonemapping). The Curves control just changes the input versus output brighness levels which also changes color to a certain extent (because they are not strictly separated in an RGB colorspace).

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 05:58:20 AM by BartvanderWolf » Logged
Simon Garrett
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 05:53:51 AM »
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Personally I find the new basic (tone) panel much easier to use than curves for most purposes - and much more powerful, too.  However, I still use curves occasionally, after I've done what I can with the basic panel. 

I've gone over quite a few pictures in PV2012 (LR4) which I'd previously processed in PV2010 (LR3) and used a custom curve of some sort.  In nearly every case I could get better results by resetting a linear curve, and using basic panel sliders - usually without any need for any curves adjustment. 
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RFPhotography
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 06:16:26 AM »
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By "not both", are you saying that the sliders and tone controls cannot be used on the same image?  If so, why?

John

No, that wasn't what I was saying.  Apologies for the confusion.  What I was saying was that you may be able to use either the Basic Panel sliders alone or the Tone Curve alone and that  you may not have to use both depending on the image and what you're trying to achieve.  That certainly doesn't preclude using both.  But the two controls do different things so one is not a substitute for the other. 

Bart, I thought the Tone Curve in LR/ACR was a true luminance curve and didn't impact colour.  Unlike the Curves tool in PS which, in Normal blend mode, does impact both contrast and colour which is why it's often changed to the Luminosity blend mode.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 06:25:12 AM »
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No, that wasn't what I was saying.  Apologies for the confusion.  What I was saying was that you may be able to use either the Basic Panel sliders alone or the Tone Curve alone and that  you may not have to use both depending on the image and what you're trying to achieve.  That certainly doesn't preclude using both.  But the two controls do different things so one is not a substitute for the other. 

That's is what I assumed, but wanted to check
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Bart, I thought the Tone Curve in LR/ACR was a true luminance curve and didn't impact colour.  Unlike the Curves tool in PS which, in Normal blend mode, does impact both contrast and colour which is why it's often changed to the Luminosity blend mode.

If I remember it correctly, I had a conversation with Eric on this sometime back...requesting a "switch" to luminosity blending of the curves in LR.  He confirmed it did not have it.  I don't remember, without searching for the notes, if he said it might be a future consideration.  I would love it if it were added.

John
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John
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 07:06:52 AM »
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Charlie Cramer has a tutorial posted on the site expressly about this subject. It was about 3 months ago. Very informative.
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RFPhotography
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 07:07:06 AM »
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If I remember it correctly, I had a conversation with Eric on this sometime back...requesting a "switch" to luminosity blending of the curves in LR.  He confirmed it did not have it.  I don't remember, without searching for the notes, if he said it might be a future consideration.  I would love it if it were added.

John

Hmmm.  OK.  I thought it already was set up that way.  Guess not.  Agreed, it would be good.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 07:22:32 AM »
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Charlie Cramer has a tutorial posted on the site expressly about this subject. It was about 3 months ago. Very informative.

Do you have a link?  His site doesn't see to have an index.

Edit....nevermind...on LuLa....but (very) quick review does not seem to address saturation shift.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 07:27:07 AM by jrsforums » Logged

John
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 07:33:13 AM »
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There is a post on here from a couple of days ago where the Digital Dog retells a story about Dan Margulis asking Thomas Knoll to implement a luminousity curve in ACR and he declined much to Dan's chagrin. This was a while back.
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jrsforums
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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 07:41:34 AM »
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There is a post on here from a couple of days ago where the Digital Dog retells a story about Dan Margulis asking Thomas Knoll to implement a luminousity curve in ACR and he declined much to Dan's chagrin. This was a while back.

As I mentioned above, I would love it...as an on/off switch....I have yet to find an image where it was not fixed by a little negative saturation. 

It may not be scientifically or mathematically exactly the same as luminosity, but we are playing horseshoes here, aren't we?

John
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John
BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2012, 09:41:10 AM »
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As I mentioned above, I would love it...as an on/off switch....I have yet to find an image where it was not fixed by a little negative saturation.  

It may not be scientifically or mathematically exactly the same as luminosity, but we are playing horseshoes here, aren't we?

Hi John,

I think one has too look further ahead. With the (certainly until recent) slowly developing HDR tonemapping functionality (32-b/ch TIFFs) things like the ICAM (Color Appearance Model) are becoming more important than strictly colorimetric color. Such a CAM (e.g. CIECAM02) allows to e.g avoid oversaturated shadow colors in a perceptually believable way, or tune saturation clipping and perceptually correct brightness changes.

That may also be one aspect of the lack of response to Dan Margulis' supposed question, who tried to push L* a*b* processing, which is far from neutral even when switching (back and forth) to an RGB colorspace.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 09:53:07 AM by BartvanderWolf » Logged
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