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Author Topic: Remembrance Day 2012  (Read 5898 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2012, 01:11:06 PM »
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Your posts here are as "appropriate" as Westboro Baptist Church' protest at military funerals. You know, showing up in front of the grieving friends and family with signs like "Thanks God For Dead Soldiers." You are in good company. Real classy.
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Slobodan

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jeremypayne
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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2012, 01:27:20 PM »
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the whole thing has become an unquestionable ceremony

When in a hole, stop digging.

Allow people their remembrance and move on.  Save your dime-store arguments for Speaker's Corner.
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Justinr
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2012, 01:30:09 PM »
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Your posts here are as "appropriate" as Westboro Baptist Church' protest at military funerals. You know, showing up in front of the grieving friends and family with signs like "Thanks God For Dead Soldiers." You are in good company. Real classy.

That is the most crass and stupid response of I have encountered so far. Are you really such a small minded little creep that you have to stoop so low?

« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 01:34:08 PM by Justinr » Logged

Justinr
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2012, 01:35:27 PM »
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When in a hole, stop digging.

Allow people their remembrance and move on.  Save your dime-store arguments for Speaker's Corner.


Yawn. Whatever Jeremy, whatever.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2012, 01:52:29 PM »
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That is the most crass and stupid response of I have encountered so far. Are you really such a small minded little creep that you have to stoop so low?

Oooppss!? Did I just hit a nerve? You don't like when someone holds the mirror for you?

Sometimes getting to the same level as your interlocutor is the only thing that guarantees they will understand you.

I could have taken the high road of not dignifying your posts with an answer, but then I remembered that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
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kencameron
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2012, 02:03:59 PM »
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So my point is that those who gave their lives perhaps gave them in vain. They are probably turning in their graves as the centralisation of power proceeds not with tanks and bombs but coercion and oppression. I weep for the loss of what it was they, my friends and mentors, so bravely fought for. It is not a cheap jibe but a lament for the pointlessness of their sacrifice.
You are seriously comparing the current financial misfortunes of some Europeans with what it would have been like to live in a Nazi-dominated Europe? Seriously? The absence, say, of any genocide going on around the place doesn't strike you as a significant difference? Or the availability of complete freedom of speech?

And just for the record, I will summarize my earlier points which, despite going on at great length, you didn't answer. Your analysis of the situation is simplistic and its anti-German element is especially misconceived. The problem here is the financial system which is multinational and which included Spanish, Greek and Irish banks who were its representatives in their own countries, and the failure of Governments, both national and multinational (the EEC), to control it. "Blaming it all on the Germans" is harking back to the bad old days when the Europeans conducted their arguments with bullets.

All these things are arguable of course and there is a time and place for arguing them. You genuinely don't seem to understand why this wasn't the time or place. As best I can understand it (your emotions are a lot stronger than your logic) you  think it was ok to have a go at the Germans over the current financial misfortunes of the Irish and others because Remembrance Day ceremonies glorify war. Well - not if you talk to any of the surviving soldiers or nurses or family members they don't, or the children who turn up to them in increasing numbers - the idea of war amazes and appalls them. And the appropriate response, if you don't like a ceremony which means a lot to other people, is to stay away and not turn up waving some obscure placard about another matter. This applies just as much on line as it does on the street.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 02:30:13 PM by kencameron » Logged

Justinr
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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2012, 04:11:56 PM »
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http://www.guardian.co.uk
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2012, 04:14:54 PM »
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Again, you seem to fail to recognize there is a time and a place for political debate.

This is not that time or place.  A newspaper is.

What's wrong with you?
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Justinr
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2012, 04:24:30 PM »
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You are seriously comparing the current financial misfortunes of some Europeans with what it would have been like to live in a Nazi-dominated Europe? Seriously? The absence, say, of any genocide going on around the place doesn't strike you as a significant difference? Or the availability of complete freedom of speech?

And just for the record, I will summarize my earlier points which, despite going on at great length, you didn't answer. Your analysis of the situation is simplistic and its anti-German element is especially misconceived. The problem here is the financial system which is multinational and which included Spanish, Greek and Irish banks who were its representatives in their own countries, and the failure of Governments, both national and multinational (the EEC), to control it. "Blaming it all on the Germans" is harking back to the bad old days when the Europeans conducted their arguments with bullets.

All these things are arguable of course and there is a time and place for arguing them. You genuinely don't seem to understand why this wasn't the time or place. As best I can understand it (your emotions are a lot stronger than your logic) you  think it was ok to have a go at the Germans over the current financial misfortunes of the Irish and others because Remembrance Day ceremonies glorify war. Well - not if you talk to any of the surviving soldiers or nurses or family members they don't, or the children who turn up to them in increasing numbers - the idea of war amazes and appalls them. And the appropriate response, if you don't like a ceremony which means a lot to other people, is to stay away and not turn up waving some obscure placard about another matter. This applies just as much on line as it does on the street.

Really, what the feck are you on about? You have missed the arguments completely.

Jeez it's hard work with you guys at times.

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Justinr
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2012, 04:26:31 PM »
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Again, you seem to fail to recognize there is a time and a place for political debate.

This is not that time or place.  A newspaper is.

What's wrong with you?

Having to put up with your empty headed nonsense is not good for the blood pressure I will admit.
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kencameron
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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2012, 04:30:57 PM »
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Really, what the feck are you on about?
It is nice, and unexpected, to get a confession that you don't have a clue. You deserve credit for that.

BTW, the Guardian article you linked to was interesting, well argued, and, in context, entirely appropriate.
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2012, 04:35:41 PM »
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Having to put up with your empty headed nonsense is not good for the blood pressure I will admit.

Start another thread. 

Making political hay when people are trying to remember the dead is in despicably poor taste.

Just not sure what aspect of that is unclear to you.
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Justinr
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2012, 04:46:43 PM »
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It is nice, and unexpected, to get a confession that you don't have a clue. You deserve credit for that.

BTW, the Guardian article you linked to was interesting, well argued, and, in context, entirely appropriate.

Well, you didn't give us much to go on.

Anyway, now that you have read another persons view that is generally in line with one strand of my argument perhaps you can take time off from childish sniping and express an opinion as to why you think it appropriate.
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2012, 04:57:54 PM »
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Anyway, now that you have read another persons view that is generally in line with one strand of my argument perhaps you can take time off from childish sniping and express an opinion as to why you think it appropriate.

Nobody is addressing your 'arguments' because this is not the time or place for such discussions.

As pointed already ... a newspaper IS the right place for such expression.

Jeeze, man ... get an 'effen clue.
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Justinr
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2012, 06:07:58 PM »
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Good night Jeremy.
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2012, 06:24:03 PM »
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Justin, I do not think this was a good way to jump in on this thread with the views you have espoused.  Its a bit like joining a thread entitled 'Happy Christmas everyone' and belittling the meaning of the celebration to Christians.
However, here in the UK I am starting to feel uneasy about the way Remembrance Day has been built up in recent years.  I completely support the idea of remembering those who gave their lives - mostly unwillingly, to protect their families and way of life.  But I do wonder if the level of political interest in the whole thing is becoming more about showing support for our current military operations.  There seems to be no shortage of young people around here queuing up to join the army and risk getting their limbs blown off by a bomb in Afghanistan.   I wonder if part of the attraction is the apparent reverence in which the dead and mutilated soldiers are held - particularly on Remembrance Day.
My grand dad fought between 1914 and 1918 and told me there was no glory in war, and saw the whole thing as a waste of life.  He remembered the dead in his own personal way, not at reunions and services.

Jim
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kencameron
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2012, 09:05:08 PM »
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Well, you didn't give us much to go on.
Well - clearly not enough for you. "Us" - I am not sure who else you mean to include. No-one has put their hand up.

Anyway, now that you have read another persons view that is generally in line with one strand of my argument perhaps you can take time off from childish sniping and express an opinion as to why you think it appropriate.
The time and place were appropriate. Even a modestly attentive reading of the thread to this point would have allowed you to understand that. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about Remembrance Days. Your take on it, like your take on the European Financial Crisis, is simplistic, but there are bits of it I agree with. There is deep and genuine emotion, which needs to be respected, and a great deal of media spin, which needs to be understood and pointed out. Respecting the genuine emotion means being careful about the time and place you choose to comment on the media spin.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 09:08:41 PM by kencameron » Logged

Justinr
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2012, 02:26:25 AM »
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Well - clearly not enough for you. "Us" - I am not sure who else you mean to include. No-one has put their hand up.
The time and place were appropriate. Even a modestly attentive reading of the thread to this point would have allowed you to understand that. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about Remembrance Days. Your take on it, like your take on the European Financial Crisis, is simplistic, but there are bits of it I agree with. There is deep and genuine emotion, which needs to be respected, and a great deal of media spin, which needs to be understood and pointed out. Respecting the genuine emotion means being careful about the time and place you choose to comment on the media spin.

Oh didums, did I shake you out of your little comfort zone? Well when you reach some stage of maturity you will appreciate that there are other views and opinions in this big nasty old world that will shock you unless you wise up a little. You may also get round to expanding your thinking to include all the information presented to you and not just pick and choose that which suits your prejudices. I really don't see your objections as anything more than an inability to climb outside your prissy little box and if you feel that I do not respect the fallen and those that survived then I suggest you go back over my posts and read them again. Running your finger slowly the words as you read them may help.
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kencameron
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2012, 03:38:05 AM »
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Oh didums, did I shake you out of your little comfort zone? Well when you reach some stage of maturity you will appreciate that there are other views and opinions in this big nasty old world that will shock you unless you wise up a little. You may also get round to expanding your thinking to include all the information presented to you and not just pick and choose that which suits your prejudices. I really don't see your objections as anything more than an inability to climb outside your prissy little box and if you feel that I do not respect the fallen and those that survived then I suggest you go back over my posts and read them again. Running your finger slowly the words as you read them may help.
Roll Eyes
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stamper
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2012, 05:50:18 AM »
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I find it a little strange that Jeremy and Slobodan are among the ones leading the attack on your good self? They aren't usually shy at bringing out their soap boxes when it suits them on differing subjects. Is there really a correct time to start a discussion on a subject you feel passionate about? Probably/possibly is the answer. I too have doubts about the sincerity of some of the people partaking in the remembrance parades. David Cameron sending troops to Afghanistan to die for a futile cause and then commiserating with the relatives of the fallen is distasteful. Personally I have tried ignoring the various scenes on the TV of remembrance but actively commenting on them, well I have taken the coward's way out and got on with other things knowing it will blow over till next Autumn. Lips sealed
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