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Author Topic: Remembrance Day 2012  (Read 5397 times)
Justinr
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2012, 08:48:53 AM »
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I find it a little strange that Jeremy and Slobodan are among the ones leading the attack on your good self? They aren't usually shy at bringing out their soap boxes when it suits them on differing subjects. Is there really a correct time to start a discussion on a subject you feel passionate about? Probably/possibly is the answer. I too have doubts about the sincerity of some of the people partaking in the remembrance parades. David Cameron sending troops to Afghanistan to die for a futile cause and then commiserating with the relatives of the fallen is distasteful. Personally I have tried ignoring the various scenes on the TV of remembrance but actively commenting on them, well I have taken the coward's way out and got on with other things knowing it will blow over till next Autumn. Lips sealed

Well quite, although I don't so much doubt the sincerity of 99% of mourners as challenge the hypocrisy of those with an interest in promoting armed conflict. Politicians talking out of the side of their mouths we are used to unfortunately but the media knows that war generates news, the arms companies obviously have an interest, the services themselves don't want to see their role or budgets diminished and a period of enforced unity can blunt any opposition to other government actions that may be occurring at the same time. How can we have proper accountability when for a short period each year the politicians all wear the same badge? All in all it can add up to a pretty impressive piece of propaganda and something of a smokescreen, it's relentless promotion in the weeks leading up to the day leaves me feeling quite uneasy about it all. I certainly cannot recall such a big fuss being made over it in my youth.

As I said earlier, I do feel that it is being hijacked to serve purposes other than simple and heartfelt remembrance, which is what it should be, without the social pressure to conform to the poppy wearing ritual or other events that have sprung up around the day.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2012, 09:03:03 AM »
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... I do feel that it is being hijacked to serve purposes other than simple and heartfelt remembrance...

Finally, a self-criticism!

Oh, wait! You meant... never mind.
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Slobodan

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stamper
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2012, 03:41:42 AM »
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A good read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poppycock-mans-arrest-for-posting-image-of-burning-poppy-on-facebook-is-condemned-by-civil-liberties-activists-8306784.html?fb_action_ids=10152262123860578%2C3958542198250%2C10151165695919597%2C10151504754567067%2C10151504749767067&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210152262123860578%22%3A189326711191929%2C%223958542198250%22%3A189326711191929%2C%2210151165695919597%22%3A189326711191929%2C%2210151504754567067%22%3A376157835800010%2C%2210151504749767067%22%3A380793475328605%2C%2210151504749092067%22%3A428010170597627%2C%2210151504746337067%22%3A295962650519630}#access_token=AAADWQ6323IoBACBlci0tk6ApEF3LbUWGgy3mNxhqXoIVrStX6LTTdVeNZBwtjJnEHi1Adt9SSVGLoO5j2AuiGGAuhGfJP49E0ISWSWvedKqZCBQrt4&expires_in=4448

Sorry for the long link. Over the top reaction?
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LoisWakeman
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2012, 03:48:32 AM »
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Good lord - that URL must be sufficient to identify every star in the universe I would imagine!

The perp is an insensitive and foul-mouthed idiot - but arresting him? Our gaols are full enough already, without adding half the members of Facebook to the population.
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Justinr
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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2012, 04:42:07 AM »
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The irony of the reaction to the poppy burning is far too rich for the authorities to grasp it would seem, but first it's worth pointing out that we have all done silly things in our youth, it's part of growing up, usually nobody takes any notice and all is forgotten if anybody realised anything untoward had even occurred in the first place. Unfortunately, with the wretched Facebook, our japes are easily broadcast and so the ponderous and not very bright long arm of the law creaks into action summoning up various acts which were meant to curtail totally different activities and applies them in a manner which once again chips away at our freedoms and what we fondly believe to be a liberal society.

We keep reminding ourselves that the veterans died in the cause of freedom, but not the freedom to be young and irresponsible it would seem. I wonder just how many people were truly offended by this if you  discount the various do gooders, politicians and those with an agenda to pursue in promoting the glory of war. I personally am far more concerned with the heavy handed reaction, that is the scariest part of it all, especially when you consider that they were responding to what they thought was public opinion rather than actual breach of the law. Has the media and other shapers of public opinion so distorted our values that we see it as being right and proper to bang up teenagers for simply being teenagers? In what sort of direction are we pushing society?

To be honest I see this as another reason why we should slowly and gently let Remembrance day quietly fade as the veterans of the wars gradually pass away, there is too much politics now being attached to it, not least by myself.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 05:08:59 AM by Justinr » Logged

kencameron
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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2012, 07:19:17 PM »
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"Freedom-of-speech campaigners accused the police of using the law to effectively arrest a man for causing offence"

+1. Causing offence should never be illegal and there is no human right to never be offended. People are usually free to state that they are offended in the same context or forum as the original statement or action.  Public condemnation should be the only sanction for this kind of thing.
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kencameron
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« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2012, 07:38:12 PM »
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To be honest I see this as another reason why we should slowly and gently let Remembrance day quietly fade as the veterans of the wars gradually pass away
I certainly hope it doesn't get reinvigorated by new wars, but I wouldn't count on it.

Before this thread fades, I thought there should be at least one post that responds to what I take to be the OP's original intention to create an on-line space for remembrance. I am as responsible as anyone else for its departure from that intention.

Hence the shot below, of the Anzac Day Dawn Service at a little village on the East Coast of Australia in 2005. No media, no dignitaries, no spin, just local people remembering their dead as the sky lightened and  the sun came up out of the sea. Anzac Day is probably the major occasion for remembrance in Australia and New Zealand and the Dawn Service seems to have some natural immunity to hijack.

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WalterEG
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« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2012, 08:55:05 PM »
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Is it out of place in this thread to say that I find that a wonderfully moving image Ken.  Thanks.
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LoisWakeman
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« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2012, 03:09:27 AM »
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I personally am far more concerned with the heavy handed reaction, that is the scariest part of it all, especially when you consider that they were responding to what they thought was public opinion rather than actual breach of the law.

Both the police and politicians seem to be concerned with making (often very ill-advised) knee-jerk reactions to outcries on social and traditional media these days, at least here in the UK. This is not the only case of utter stupidity.  Roll Eyes
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stamper
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« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2012, 03:45:18 AM »
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One problem the police have is if they hear an offensive remark hurled at a person from another then they have to judge whether the offensive remark may lead to a fight or even a riot. Preventative policing has an important part to play but it can be seen as over reacting and interfering in a person's civil rights. Usually a stern warning works but not always? They are under increasing pressure from politicians to be seen to be acting forcefully and another problem is everyone and their uncle seem nowadays to have a camera and using them. No easy answer?
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DougJ
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« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2012, 01:56:35 PM »
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Ken, you are so right: I had hoped that my originating post would be an opportunity for some to remember with gratitude the sacrifice that others had made.  As the quote says: the price of anything is the amount of life we exchange for it.  And, not just in war: for example, some of us see our children less as we work longer hours to ensure that we can provide them some opportunity to be better (in a variety of ways) than we are, and then suddenly they are adults and we missed their childhood--reminds me of the Harry Chapin song,  Cat's in the Cradle, lyrics at http://www.lyricsdepot.com/harry-chapin/cats-in-the-cradle.html.

But back to your pic: it is so reminiscent of what I see in the small town in which I live: a genuine thanks giving, notwithstanding the sorry state we may find ourselves in, politically, socially, economically. 

And what of my original image: as presented, does it have any redeeming merit?

Ciao,

Doug
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kencameron
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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2012, 02:19:44 PM »
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And what of my original image: as presented, does it have any redeeming merit?
It took me straight back to Normandy, which I visited in 2004, and exactly captures something that struck me strongly there - so many graves, so many lives lost, all the white crosses on the green slopes.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2012, 03:10:59 PM »
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... Germany dominates the running of the Eurozone... It can afford to because it is quite happily bullying the poorer states... We are being milked to keep Germany prosperous...

... The allies went to war with a Germany...those who gave their lives perhaps gave them in vain. They are probably turning in their graves as the centralisation of power proceeds not with tanks and bombs but coercion and oppression...

An interesting article in the Wall Street Journal today:

"FRANKFURT—The influx of Southern Europeans into Germany gathered pace in recent months, as a growing number of Greeks, Spaniards and Portuguese ventured north to escape deepening recession and rising social tensions. The biggest increase came from Greece. The number of Greeks moving to Germany jumped 78% in the first half of 2012 from a year earlier, Germany's statistics office said..."


Ain't that funny how those "dominated, bullied, milked, coerced and oppressed" are actually not running away from the "oppressor," but toward it, don't you think?
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Slobodan

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kencameron
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« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2012, 03:23:56 PM »
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Ain't that funny how those "dominated, bullied, milked, coerced and oppressed" are actually not running away from the "oppressor," but toward it, don't you think?
Cheesy
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DougJ
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« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2012, 10:35:55 PM »
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My image, Ken, dates from 2008 when, possibly in an act of chauvinism, our middle son and I, both WW-II history buffs especially around cryptography, planned our personal tour to follow the Canadian soldier's footsteps from Juno Beach through to Caen.

So, when you say that the image took you back to 2004 in Normandy, it says to me that my image works.  I'm not in the business of selling my images, but if anyone asks, is it for sale?, the answer is yes, and this image, framed, hangs in the homes of several people who bought it having asked if it was for sale.

best, and Ciao,

Doug


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Justinr
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« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2012, 01:50:14 PM »
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An interesting article in the Wall Street Journal today:

"FRANKFURT—The influx of Southern Europeans into Germany gathered pace in recent months, as a growing number of Greeks, Spaniards and Portuguese ventured north to escape deepening recession and rising social tensions. The biggest increase came from Greece. The number of Greeks moving to Germany jumped 78% in the first half of 2012 from a year earlier, Germany's statistics office said..."


Ain't that funny how those "dominated, bullied, milked, coerced and oppressed" are actually not running away from the "oppressor," but toward it, don't you think?


Just picked up on this as I have been running around hospitals of late.

A rather superficial take on the situation, as is to be expected, but if you really want to pursue it then it's probably best to start a new thread.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 02:07:43 PM by Justinr » Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2012, 02:08:48 PM »
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... A rather superficial take on the situation,

This criticism comes from a guy with a really "deep" analysis of international economics!?

Quote
as is to be expected,

Another dig at me personally, though less vulgar than before.

Quote
and if you really want to pursue it then it's probably best to start a new thread.

Look who is talking!

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Slobodan

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Justinr
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2012, 03:29:12 AM »
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This criticism comes from a guy with a really "deep" analysis of international economics!?

Another dig at me personally, though less vulgar than before.

Look who is talking!



Whatever Slobodan, whatever, but why not try it anyway, it would be fascinating to see if you are actually able to hold a discussion without resorting to sneering at the messenger rather than countering the points of any argument put forward. Unfortunately the former would appear to be your default mode.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 05:00:51 AM by Justinr » Logged

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