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Author Topic: Anyone else desensitized ?  (Read 15497 times)
petermfiore
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2013, 05:44:13 PM »
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That's easy. The losers of any war are always the bad guys, and the winners are always the good guys. The winners write the history books.


Until the rewrite. Sometime it only takes a decade or two. Often a little more.

Peter
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iluvmycam
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 01:15:40 PM »
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Many old time war photogs were not allowed to shoot horrors.

It is good to record it all, generally no censorship.

Your lucky I'm not a war photog.

Less art - More truth...Robert Frank
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Rob C
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 03:36:49 AM »
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Many old time war photogs were not allowed to shoot horrors.

It is good to record it all, generally no censorship.

Your lucky I'm not a war photog.

Less art - More truth...Robert Frank




Depends what you're peddling.

Everyone's peddling something.

Rob C
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 06:30:09 AM »
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That's easy. The losers of any war are always the bad guys, and the winners are always the good guys. The winners write the history books.
So who won Iraq and Afghanistan? Who were the good guys? In what ways have journalism and photojournalism changed since ww2?

I remember discussing this with an American about 10 years ago. She could not get past the point of "well, at least we get something done". I tried to hint that history is full of unpleasant dictators who certainly got something done, but that the US would not like being compared to. I sort of believe that travelling to Europe was the first time she had heard criticism of her countries actions in this matter.

-h
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 06:33:47 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
RSL
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2013, 08:08:27 AM »
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That's easy. The losers of any war are always the bad guys, and the winners are always the good guys. The winners write the history books.

So if Hitler now owned the European continent and the British Isles he'd be the good guy? I'm sure his propaganda would have it so, but would people believe it? Even Europeans and Englishmen? I was around during the period after Hitler "won" France and I don't recall a whole bunch of French people deciding Hitler was a good guy.
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Rob C
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2013, 10:03:44 AM »
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So if Hitler now owned the European continent and the British Isles he'd be the good guy? I'm sure his propaganda would have it so, but would people believe it? Even Europeans and Englishmen? I was around during the period after Hitler "won" France and I don't recall a whole bunch of French people deciding Hitler was a good guy.



Nope, and a lot of 'friendly' ladies got a pretty severe, free haircut for their pains, faux groans and friendliness.

I think HC-B got some shots of that too...

Mainly, my war memories are of black gliders being towed overhead in the summer evening light en route to God knows what fate; probably to hang from a tree or a telephone line until they got shot...  I also remember the train trip into London from Middlesex: the ruins on the sides of the tracks... yeah, a whole load of mustachioed laughs.

But, and but, wouldn't Iraq have been better off left to itself? I don't see Libya being any better off either. Perhaps we should accept that people have to find their own salvation in this world. Seems to me that if you consider Italy, supposedly a leading economy in Europe, you have to wonder why it has had so many changes of government. Then you realise the great mental divide between north and south, mirrored in Spain and France, along with all the tight history of regionalism, gangsterism and it doesnít take a giant step into the unknown to figure that people, so different even within a single state with more or less a single religion, still canít really accept one another as equal or even similar.

Magnify that problem in the Middel East, with the  different moslem beliefs in death struggles one with the other, and you have to wonder why outsiders think they know anything much about what makes those societies tick. I think itís the crazy, proselytizing notion of democracy being good for everyone thatís at the base of our problems regarding that area of the world. We seek to apply a single solution as if it were the only one. Thatís quite apart from blatant, blind (apparently) positive western bias towards the single state that most of those people in the region hate. And then, surprised, some wonder why we are not the most popular people in the local top-twenty hit parade. How would anyone here feel if the guys from the next county moved into your field and built an illegal housing estate there? And you had no court of appeal that actually gave a shit?

Itís all a frigginí great mess. Frankly, I donít really think it boils down to fear of losing oil: those cats would always want to sell it to us; we should just have learned to keep our noses out of their domestic affairs. Too late.

Rob C
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 10:05:40 AM by Rob C » Logged

hjulenissen
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« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2013, 02:45:31 PM »
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So if Hitler now owned the European continent and the British Isles he'd be the good guy? I'm sure his propaganda would have it so, but would people believe it? Even Europeans and Englishmen? I was around during the period after Hitler "won" France and I don't recall a whole bunch of French people deciding Hitler was a good guy.
He would not _be_ the good guy, but if his regime had been able to stay in power up until now in all of Europe, I think that most inhabitants would _believe_ that he was a good guy. Most of mankind seems to be constructed so as to accept or even "love" dominant leaders when the alternative is death.

I believe that history books in the US, in Europe, in Russia, in China etc are quite different. And we tend to believe them. My country put a great emphasis on certain polar expeditions and feeble attempts at resistance during WW2, no doubt because our national pride demands it. We also close shops when there is a skiing world cup.

-h
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 02:49:18 PM by hjulenissen » Logged
RSL
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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2013, 04:56:33 PM »
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You've GOT to be kidding. You really believe that when the alternative is death people "love" their rulers? Check out Vietnam after the war was over, or Cambodia during the same period, or Cuba now.

But then, since you haven't let us know what "my country" is, I have no way of knowing. You mention "feeble attempts at resistance during WW2" so I'd assume you're probably in a Scandinavian country. Since your age is N/A I'd guess you probably were born after the war was over, perhaps long after. Don't denigrate your own people's resistance. They didn't think Hitler was a good guy, but he was the SOB with the guns.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2013, 02:34:11 AM »
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You've GOT to be kidding. You really believe that when the alternative is death people "love" their rulers? Check out Vietnam after the war was over, or Cambodia during the same period, or Cuba now.
Why is it that so many women choose to stay with their whife-beating spouse? Even in western countries where divorce is accepted and health-personell and the police are begging them to move out, where there are organizations who help them out with housing and new life?

We like to portray ourselves and mankind as proud, freedom-loving beings capable of making up our opinion on "right" and "wrong" - and following that opinion whatever the cost. That is only a part of our personality, we are also part sheep...
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But then, since you haven't let us know what "my country" is, I have no way of knowing. You mention "feeble attempts at resistance during WW2" so I'd assume you're probably in a Scandinavian country. Since your age is N/A I'd guess you probably were born after the war was over, perhaps long after. Don't denigrate your own people's resistance. They didn't think Hitler was a good guy, but he was the SOB with the guns.
My point was rather that we choose to focus on the (few) brave men who fought our suppressors, rather than the many who aided them in e.g. deporting jews, or the military who was proven utterly incompetent (and, frequently among higher ranking officers, traitors) during the swift German campaign. In 1945, silly 18-year old girls who had fallen in love with German soldiers were subject to severe state and private punishment, while grown-up merchants who had become rich supplying the Germans with stuff they needed to do their thing were often unpunished. The English liked to blow-up, bury or sink infra-structure and supplies used by the Germans - no doubt in order to sell us the same things afterwards: my grandfather dug up dumped aircraft engines from the river-bed to use as spare-parts in his wood shop, my family still have an old radial engine block used as a garden table support.

We cherry-pick those parts of history that makes ourselves, our ancestors, our leaders and our nation look good. We down-play other parts of history. I am sure that the US does the same thing (or so I am told by friends who went to US schools for a year). I will never have the intimate knowledge of the feeling during WW2 as those who experienced it had. But I believe that distance makes it easier to second-guess the "truths" established right after the war. This can be a good or a bad thing. I don't like those who make a career pretending that the German death camps never existed. But I think it is interesting to hear that the US internmented 110.000 Japanese-Americans (not to compare the conditions of American to German interment-camps in any way).

-h
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 02:45:39 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
Rob C
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2013, 03:40:42 AM »
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Why is it that so many women choose to stay with their whife-beating spouse? Even in western countries where divorce is accepted and health-personell and the police are begging them to move out, where there are organizations who help them out with housing and new life?

We like to portray ourselves and mankind as proud, freedom-loving beings capable of making up our opinion on "right" and "wrong" - and following that opinion whatever the cost. That is only a part of our personality, we are also part sheep...My point was rather that we choose to focus on the (few) brave men who fought our suppressors, rather than the many who aided them in e.g. deporting jews, or the military who was proven utterly incompetent (and, frequently among higher ranking officers, traitors) during the swift German campaign. In 1945, silly 18-year old girls who had fallen in love with German soldiers were subject to severe state and private punishment, while grown-up merchants who had become rich supplying the Germans with stuff they needed to do their thing were often unpunished. The English liked to blow-up, bury or sink infra-structure and supplies used by the Germans - no doubt in order to sell us the same things afterwards: my grandfather dug up dumped aircraft engines from the river-bed to use as spare-parts in his wood shop, my family still have an old radial engine block used as a garden table support.

We cherry-pick those parts of history that makes ourselves, our ancestors, our leaders and our nation look good. We down-play other parts of history. I am sure that the US does the same thing (or so I am told by friends who went to US schools for a year). I will never have the intimate knowledge of the feeling during WW2 as those who experienced it had. But I believe that distance makes it easier to second-guess the "truths" established right after the war. This can be a good or a bad thing. I don't like those who make a career pretending that the German death camps never existed. But I think it is interesting to hear that the US internmented 110.000 Japanese-Americans (not to compare the conditions of American to German interment-camps in any way).

-h


ď1.  Why is it that so many women choose to stay with their whife-beating spouse? Even in western countries where divorce is accepted and health-personell and the police are begging them to move out, where there are organizations who help them out with housing and new life?

2.   We cherry-pick those parts of history that makes ourselves, our ancestors, our leaders and our nation look good. We down-play other parts of history. I am sure that the US does the same thing (or so I am told by friends who went to US schools for a year).

3.   I will never have the intimate knowledge of the feeling during WW2 as those who experienced it had. But I believe that distance makes it easier to second-guess the "truths" established right after the war. This can be a good or a bad thing. I don't like those who make a career pretending that the German death camps never existed.

4.  But I think it is interesting to hear that the US internmented 110.000 Japanese-Americans (not to compare the conditions of American to German interment-camps in any way).

-hĒ



1.  Thatís a question nobody seems capable of answering well. I suspect that itís because some of them grew up in similar environments and think it normal (for them). Others are incapable of doing anything for themselves Ė and thatís not only the women. Generations of ignorance and of living in an underclass produce such mindsets, Iím certain. If it occurs in higher social circles, Iíd wager that it comes down to the financial advantages to putting up with the Ďarrangementí.

2.  Iím sure you are right; itís part of every countryís programme to accentuate the positive, though whether positive or negative depends on whose point of view.

3.  Thatís a fatal flaw. Second-guessing would now have had me a rich man wirth a mega-yacht, a home in Monaco and a island in the Bahamas. Photographically speaking, itís also why I have such a downer on critiques: anyone can do critique: how good you are at doing it all depends on how flowery your command of language.

4.  I think that the U.S. version wasnít equivalent to the Nazi one, as you write, so why make the point? If there was a reason to put Japanese-origined people aside Iíd say it was possibly not without cause: if you look at countries such as our own in Europe, you soon realise that immigrant peoples remain such by choice: they simply donít want to accept the guest culture. Why else do Americans seem to identify themselves as Irish-American, Italian-American and so forth? Why is Spanish now more widely spoken that English in the U.S.A.? This has been raised before and contested, but the conception remains. Britain and France face this dilemma too: what happens here if/when a real, broad Christian v. Islamist war becomes reality in the world? It happened some hundreds of years ago and history does tend to repeat itself, especially with so many pushing for it, but then the Ďenemyí didnít live next doorÖ

Rob C
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2013, 04:31:22 AM »
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3.  Thatís a fatal flaw. Second-guessing would now have had me a rich man wirth a mega-yacht, a home in Monaco and a island in the Bahamas. Photographically speaking, itís also why I have such a downer on critiques: anyone can do critique: how good you are at doing it all depends on how flowery your command of language.
"Second-guess" may have been a poor choice of words: English is not my native tongue. My point was that distance in time allows you to take a "cool, calm and collected" view of the facts present. You may find that the truths established by the victors were emotional, one-sided and, possibly, wrong.
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4.  I think that the U.S. version wasnít equivalent to the Nazi one, as you write, so why make the point? If there was a reason to put Japanese-origined people aside Iíd say it was possibly not without cause...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
"In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation said that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership".[13] The U.S. government eventually disbursed more than $1.6 billion in reparations to Japanese Americans who had been interned and their heirs.[14]"
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if you look at countries such as our own in Europe, you soon realise that immigrant peoples remain such by choice: they simply donít want to accept the guest culture. Why else do Americans seem to identify themselves as Irish-American, Italian-American and so forth? Why is Spanish now more widely spoken that English in the U.S.A.? This has been raised before and contested, but the conception remains. Britain and France face this dilemma too: what happens here if/when a real, broad Christian v. Islamist war becomes reality in the world? It happened some hundreds of years ago and history does tend to repeat itself, especially with so many pushing for it, but then the Ďenemyí didnít live next doorÖ
Have you read "Clash of Civilzations"?

If you have Asian appearance, there is a possibility that a society of primarily non-Asians will force you into an "immigrant" lifestyle. Same thing for arabs in Europe. That is not to say that these people wants to be integrated, and "integration" means different things to different people. It seems that the US have been quite successful at making people of different cultures live quite peacefully together. They have had English language, European culture and the "selfmade man, get rich fast, lonesome cowboy"-concepts that (for a foreigner) seem quite common among US citizens of various origin, though.

Interestingly, scandinavian countries are deeply worried about the poor integration of muslim immigrants, yet we celebrate the scandinavian outposts in Minnesota that keep their cultural legacy alive. I draw the line at working, paying tax, following the laws. If you do that, I am willing to accept strange religion, strange food and strange opinions.

-h
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 04:36:22 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
RSL
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2013, 08:04:57 AM »
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I draw the line at working, paying tax, following the laws. If you do that, I am willing to accept strange religion, strange food and strange opinions.

Really? Whose laws? Sharia? If you welcome strange religion and strange opinions with open arms, sooner or later the people with the strange religion and strange opinions will be the lawmakers. Will you be willing to follow their laws?
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2013, 08:54:36 AM »
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Really? Whose laws? Sharia? If you welcome strange religion and strange opinions with open arms, sooner or later the people with the strange religion and strange opinions will be the lawmakers. Will you be willing to follow their laws?
Good points.

Laws, like language will change over time. A thousand years ago my ancestors could be expatriated for not brewing their own beer. Now you can be imprisoned for moonshining. The slow changes are not the ones to worry about, as they will mainly affect another people in another time. The fast/large changes are something else. Yes, I would fight against Sharia in my country.

3.3% of my countries inhabitants are muslims. The worst terror action to occur in my country in peacetime was carried out by a disturbed native, self-proclaimed christian, fearing that they were taking over. I think there are other, more pressing things to worry about right now. The most pressing problem is the high unemployment rates among young men from certain nations (notably: Somalia), and the lack of firm action against crime. If you come to my country searching for shelter from war or searching for a job you had better try to find a job and avoid mugging anyone. Misguided compassion and slow, poorly coordinated bureaucracy is a problem right now, not in some dim future.

If you move here now, I expect you to respect our current laws. I assume that you move here because you think that our country have some qualities that appeal to you, something that cannot be had elsewhere. If the most important aspect of society for you is sharia, it does not make much sense to move to countries that are as far from sharia as you can go.

-h
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 09:00:26 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
RSL
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2013, 09:09:49 AM »
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Good points.

The slow changes are not the ones to worry about, as they will mainly affect another people in another time.

So you consider your descendents to be "another people?" To each his own I guess. I'd much rather think of my descendents as "my people." Yes, times change, but human nature doesn't.

"And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night. "

Nothing has changed since Matthew Arnold wrote those lines. If you're not willing to pay attention and fight when it's time to fight, those ignorant armies will overwhelm your people.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2013, 12:40:18 PM »
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So you consider your descendents to be "another people?" To each his own I guess. I'd much rather think of my descendents as "my people." Yes, times change, but human nature doesn't.
I find some opinions on racism and womens rights of the founding fathers of my country, as well as the US despicable. Many of the same people would, no doubt, find some of my views equally offensive. Different times, different views. If anything, I think that many fundamentalist islam views are overlapping with fundamentalist christian views - many of those we thankfully need to consult history to find. One might hope that islam is able to reform from within, but I speculate that some decidedly non-religious external forces are critical for this to happen.

A static society is a dead society, a living society needs to change. I shall promote my ideals for so long as I leave, hoping that the world is a somewhat better place as I depart. 200 years in the future, my descendants will have to carve out their own paths and I dont pretend to know what is right for them. I find the blind idealization of religious scripts or constitution to be a "chain and ball" for progress, although both can include passages of wisdom.

-h
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RSL
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« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2013, 03:36:33 PM »
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Very idealistic. I guess that fits with an age of N/A.
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jbayston
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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2013, 03:45:32 PM »
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I think it is process and transmission times that are just as important. 24hr news demands bitesize news and the newspapers and mags follow the tv rolling news. Consequently a picture that arrives on a news desk that is an amazing shot and happened an hour ago is likely to run on the news pages near the front. An amazing shot that was taken last week would normally be destined or the feature pages. However, news has more money than features, so if it doesn't come from a subscription service, they will be reluctant to pay for it. As the subscription services have photographers all around the world sending live pictures in, they are less likely to bother sending out something that was taken last week. The photographers know that, so they send out lots of stuff as quickly as possible. Being able to shoot 8fps helps, of course.....
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2013, 12:04:13 PM »
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Really? Whose laws? Sharia? If you welcome strange religion and strange opinions with open arms, sooner or later the people with the strange religion and strange opinions will be the lawmakers. Will you be willing to follow their laws?

Right on. We have been enslaved by Christianity for too long. It is time to create a society where the alien religions don't dictate to the masses. (I assume you don't live in the near East.)
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2013, 12:10:29 PM »
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So you consider your descendents to be "another people?" To each his own I guess. I'd much rather think of my descendents as "my people." Yes, times change, but human nature doesn't.

"And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night. "

Nothing has changed since Matthew Arnold wrote those lines. If you're not willing to pay attention and fight when it's time to fight, those ignorant armies will overwhelm your people.

Actually, times have changed. Even America could bring itself to abolish slavery.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2013, 12:29:39 PM »
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I was just browsing through my favorite photojournalism site (In focus) because they always have the most beautiful, high quality shots from all the latest important events over the world.

Their latest gallery feature are images from Syria. I've seen some war photography in my life (although I didn't look into it that much, don't like it, find it a bit vulture-istic) but the shots they have there now are crazy. There's a sequence shot of a guy running from the sniper fire over the street, running in one photo and taken down in another. There's a photo from sniper's point of view, looking through the scope.

I glanced over the images and continued surfing around. Although I'm aware I have some ADHD going on, I can't say I was impressed with the shots.

Am I wrong for thinking that we didn't have this influx of "gross" photography until the digital era? And are these photos doing anything good, or are they just desensitizing people, getting them used to the horrors?

We were always use to the horrors. This is arguably the most peaceful time in the history of the human race. Less than one hundred years ago, killing millions of people on the battlefield was OK. Public execution was entertainment. Torture was very commonplace and more than just water boarding. Hell, killing and torture is still entertainment. Just look at the movie business and TV.
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