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Author Topic: v7 - Catalogs and image adjustments - big problem  (Read 4281 times)
jeanvalentin
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« on: November 14, 2012, 08:14:17 AM »
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I post this here because Phase is looking and hopefully more people will chime in and show support.

Currently, if you use the catalog feature, any adjustments you make to the files will be stored in the catalog. That is fine. The problem is that you don't have the option to save those adjustments to an XMP file.

Let's say you start a job in the morning. You work for a few hours and something happens and the catalog gets corrupted (or anything else). You just lost all your work. All the hours you just put in are wasted. Lightroom gives you the option to save the adjustments to XMP file as you make them. This way, if anything happens, you can create a new catalog and re-import the images with ALL the adjustments you made. The way Capture One works now, you are toast.

And the back up feature that's implemented is OK for long term solution, but it's not protecting you from the scenario I just mentioned.

I think this is a critical feature to have if you want to implement catalogs. You need to have a built in safeguard for the work done.
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Valentin
jeanvalentin
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 08:31:03 AM »
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I made the same suggestion to Phase and here is their response:

"Valentin,
The catalogs do keep adjustments within the database but there is an export option, to export the RAW with the adjustments as a sidecar file. This results in a final file the same way that Sessions workflow works.

Kind Regards,
Phase One Support"


So, as I make the adjustments, I have to go File - Export .... What kind of workflow is that? Dave (or anybody from Phase), please take a look at how LR is handling this. You don't have to re-invent the wheel.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 08:45:46 AM by jeanvalentin » Logged

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Valentin
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 08:43:19 AM »
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I think it's a solid suggestion.

I also think that Sessions will be a better mechanism for "in progress" work like tethered shoots. The philosophy of a session is that Capture One is only working on one particular project and the user-interface and resource-allocation is entirely geared towards that one project.

For sure, with Catalogs having just been introduced in this initial version, I would expect more and better Cataloging features. This (or some other similar solution to the underlying need) seems like a good feature to push for.

Also, hopefully the overall point will become more and more moot as stability increases with bug-fix releases. That is to say if C1 never (or only exceedingly rarely) crashes while you're working in a catalog than the issue of what happens when it crashes will be less important.
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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 07:09:11 PM »
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...
For sure, with Catalogs having just been introduced in this initial version, I would expect more and better Cataloging features. This (or some other similar solution to the underlying need) seems like a good feature to push for.

...

Phase response: if you want that feature ... use sessions. Great response  Huh
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2012, 03:04:58 AM »
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As per Doug's reply, I would hope it would be a completely unnecessary feature.

However, you did the right thing in contacting support and your request will have been logged.

If you have elected to use .xmp adjustments then we all so have to think of the wider implications of shared catalogs and other ways we can use catalogs.

D
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David Grover
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2012, 04:17:11 AM »
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If you limit the discussion to backup, the idea of C1 saving data to xmp may indeed seem unnecessary. Even if C1 were to include all your work in its xmp sidecars (Lightroom's xmp files don't, so their backup value is dubious), these files would offer no backup advantage over a rock-solid catalogue backup. Comfort value maybe?

However, xmp files are not just for backup, and not just for adjustments. They are as much for transfer of IPTC and other metadata between different apps.

Unless I've overlooked something, C1-7 lacks the ability to save metadata back to the originals' xmp (inside the file or as a sidecar). So specifically, one can't apply ratings or captions in LR/Bridge/PM/Aperture etc, update or correct them in C1, and read those updates in another program. AFAICS you have to export a duplicate.

C1 really should update (not overwrite!) xmp if it wants to be a good citizen in an arena where people frequently use a number of apps.

John
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2012, 05:45:04 AM »
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If you limit the discussion to backup, the idea of C1 saving data to xmp may indeed seem unnecessary. Even if C1 were to include all your work in its xmp sidecars (Lightroom's xmp files don't, so their backup value is dubious), these files would offer no backup advantage over a rock-solid catalogue backup. Comfort value maybe?

However, xmp files are not just for backup, and not just for adjustments. They are as much for transfer of IPTC and other metadata between different apps.

Unless I've overlooked something, C1-7 lacks the ability to save metadata back to the originals' xmp (inside the file or as a sidecar). So specifically, one can't apply ratings or captions in LR/Bridge/PM/Aperture etc, update or correct them in C1, and read those updates in another program. AFAICS you have to export a duplicate.

C1 really should update (not overwrite!) xmp if it wants to be a good citizen in an arena where people frequently use a number of apps.

John

Yep, you have overlooked something.  Wink 

We can produce sidecar . xmp files for images, they include metadata but not adjustments.  From the Phase One help pages..

Capture One can read and store metadata in the following four formats: Embedded EXIF, Embedded IPTC-IIM, Embedded XMP and .XMP Sidecar file these four types of metadata will be automatically updated and read.

As you say John, the primary purpose of .xmp files is to transfer metadata bewteen applications.  Personally I would prefer a rock solid backup solution from the Catalog, rather than adding another way to do it.

Does Lightroom .xmp's contain ALL adjustment data?

David
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David Grover
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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2012, 07:01:11 AM »
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...
Does Lightroom .xmp's contain ALL adjustment data?

David


Yes it does. I can bring back into the catalog any files that I did years ago and I still have all the adjustments made. HUGE time saver.

The response "Use sessions if you want that feature" was puzzling. Why did you introduce catalogs if when a suggestion is made for improvement you answer it back with "use the old way"?

As for the back up feature. I never had a camera fail on me on the job. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be prepared and have backup gear for the possibility. The argument "it will be more stable in the future and you don't have to worry about it" is silly (and a little bit worrying coming from a professional company).
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 09:01:22 AM »
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Jean,

I would rather not include a feature that adds additional files to manage, if we can avoid it.

David
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David Grover
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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 10:04:03 AM »
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Jean,

I would rather not include a feature that adds additional files to manage, if we can avoid it.

David


Well, that's not a really good argument since it's currently possible: File -> Export ....

The problem is that it can be implemented better. Instead of doing it manually for each file as you make adjustments, it's done in the background. So, instead of writing to the database only, you write to the XMP file as well (if enabled in preferences).
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Valentin
john beardsworth
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 05:11:15 PM »
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Does Lightroom .xmp's contain ALL adjustment data?
Yes - and No.

Yes in the sense that the master image's adjustments are all saved to xmp. No in the sense that adjustments relating to virtual copies (variants) are not saved. Plenty of other LR work is not saved - stacking, collections, history steps, flags.... Hence my comment about the backup value of Lightroom sidecars being dubious, and I'd agree with you about wanting to avoid exposing C1 users to the same delusions!

And thanks for the clarification re what C1 does. I'm a little surprised I haven't noticed those choices.

John
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 09:50:13 AM »
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Yes - and No.

Yes in the sense that the master image's adjustments are all saved to xmp. No in the sense that adjustments relating to virtual copies (variants) are not saved. Plenty of other LR work is not saved - stacking, collections, history steps, flags.... Hence my comment about the backup value of Lightroom sidecars being dubious, and I'd agree with you about wanting to avoid exposing C1 users to the same delusions!

And thanks for the clarification re what C1 does. I'm a little surprised I haven't noticed those choices.

John

Ok, so a bit of a half solution.  Exactly what we don't want to have.
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David Grover
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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 10:50:01 AM »
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Ok, so a bit of a half solution.  Exactly what we don't want to have.


Really David? What do 99% of people use a RAW converter for? To create virtual copies or to make adjustments to the images? That's a lame excuse.
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Valentin
john beardsworth
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 01:11:45 PM »
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A half solution, David? It's more like a solution for requirements other than backup.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 03:50:37 PM »
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Really David? What do 99% of people use a RAW converter for? To create virtual copies or to make adjustments to the images? That's a lame excuse.

Jean,

Personally I don't like the idea of adding a backup solution which doesn't backup everything. We can agree it backups the most important aspect but for some users that would not be acceptable.

Ultimately I think we have to agree to disagree (as we could continue ad verbatim) and also you should know that if it becomes a much requested feature that everything is seriously considered.

D
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David Grover
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 11:57:24 PM »
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what I find doing when working on time sensitive jobs. (Oh, yes, well then, ummm they are ALL time sensitive)  I end up canceling the Backup so I don't take time on the backup.
I would hate to have a SW crash (C1 has had very few crashes), or a hardware crash, any crash that would lose my recipe.

Couple points:
I have to agree, a true DAM, is what makes secondary export type files, while a Raw converter's real job is to develop the RAW. The only time I use a virtual copy within C1 (LR I use more often, as it has good features and easy to do) is to export to Photoshop or to LR for further editing. (I export to LR as I find the BWconversion, Brushes, Gradient, Split Tone tools more user friendly).  Other copies are made by the very well designed features of ACDSee or other DAM apps....Even MediaPro has a so so ability to do this with watermarks, strip of Metadata, or addition of IPTC, and keywords, in batch or single file.  Thats what a DAM does, it manages.

You can't drive a 911 Turbo(DAM/Manager) in the dunes of the desert, and you sure don't want to drive a knobby 4x4 offroad truck(RAW developer) on the autobahn. It just won'y handle well.

Most folks in photo, even a semi pro/amateur level expect to have at least a couple apps open. The image manager is ALWAYS first point of reference. Not catalog or session developing software will ever change that.
For PC, I don't look any further than ACDSee for such a tool. Fast, and supports just about ALL file formats, EXCEPT IIQ/C1 raw files. WHY?!!  It is odd to me why Adobe who is the direct competion of C1 is OKed to read and develop IIq/C1 files, while photo managers like ACDSee cannot support these raw files. Why is that?

I still have issues switching from a Catalog to a session. In fact, unless I make a new one, or open an existing Session, I have no access to my Folder/ drives to browse into to find what I'm looking for.  I have to resort to Windows Explorer and all the folders named "CaptureOne". I can manage, but why the odd approach? Why not keep a System Folder with folder browsing enabled?

I can be frustrated or just deal with it. And for now, I am dealing with it, as I can only shoot with C1 for Phase DB backs, and I think the raw developer is truely superior to LR in a number of subjects I shoot to the style of my process.

Well....It is C1's first catalog app release. It looks like they didn't adopt much functionality from Media Pro, and aimed at the LR model. 
If only they took ACDSee's, or "open" style approach to being a DAM/DEV app. They would have leaped over LR(in both arenas). It is the least folder and file intrusive method, with the most ease of use and full of functions. Since this is the first version, I urge C1 to look at ACDSee and other smaller niche companies that stay in business for decades BECAUSE they do a few IMPORTANT things right. I hope C1 can learn from their abilities and the value they have to further enhance C1.
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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2012, 07:56:55 AM »
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Jean,

Personally I don't like the idea of adding a backup solution which doesn't backup everything. We can agree it backups the most important aspect but for some users that would not be acceptable.
...
D

How about taking a poll? I would really like to see if any professional would choose: don't backup any adjustments you made because it doesn't backup EVERYTHING.

And over the years, I noticed that's the trend with Phase: wait until enough people complain. Why do you need that? Why not include a feature because it's a good thing? You seemed to think that it's good when using sessions. What made you think (and by you, I don't mean personally you, but Phase developers) that it's not a good thing for catalogs as well?
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Valentin
john beardsworth
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 10:29:41 AM »
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How about asking the proper question? Would a "professional" prefer a backup that backs up everything (the catalogue) or a backup that doesn't back up everything (the xmp files)?

In any case, while the xmp files are currently a placebo-value backup, there's no technical reason why Adobe or C1 shouldn't decide to backup everything to xmp files. It's quite a lot of work, and you'd have to add mechanisms to avoid clashing with other apps' xmp and write code to restore adjustments from the sidecars, and it's an overhead that will be added to all future features. Far better to ensure the catalogue is robust.
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James R
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 05:20:24 PM »
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Jean,

Personally I don't like the idea of adding a backup solution which doesn't backup everything. We can agree it backups the most important aspect but for some users that would not be acceptable.

Ultimately I think we have to agree to disagree (as we could continue ad verbatim) and also you should know that if it becomes a much requested feature that everything is seriously considered.

D

Doug,

I would like to ask a question Doug.  I've been trying to follow these discussions, which can get a little confusing.  The question: Can I create a Catalog, import a few thousand images, adjust and crop them, and then export the Catalog (images and all) to another medium?  Part two: Can I send that medium to another person, who can import and view my Catalog images with all their adjustments, metadata, and copyright info?

Jim
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 06:46:30 PM by James R » Logged
jeanvalentin
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 08:15:08 PM »
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Doug,

I would like to ask a question Doug.  I've been trying to follow these discussions, which can get a little confusing.  The question: Can I create a Catalog, import a few thousand images, adjust and crop them, and then export the Catalog (images and all) to another medium?  Part two: Can I send that medium to another person, who can import and view my Catalog images with all their adjustments, metadata, and copyright info?

Jim

I'm no Doug, but currently, I can see that happening in two ways (the way I understand catalogs in C1).

1. you store the images INSIDE the catalog (bad idea in my opinion) and then you can send the catalog to somebody and they see exactly what you see
2. export the adjustments individually via the File -> Export (imagine doing that for each image) to XMP. Send the XMP to the person. Not sure how would you get the adjustments in though (there is a check mark during the import dialog but it didn't work for me; actually, I can't say that catalogs work for me period).
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Valentin
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