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Author Topic: Fabric strangeness in Capture One 7  (Read 1863 times)
FredBGG
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« on: November 14, 2012, 06:41:39 PM »
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Taking a look at some files with Moire problems in CO7 it seems to be doing strange things to the fabrics.



Color artifacts are removed, but a luminance artifact remains and at times looks worse.
Fabric texture even becomes sort of noisy/dirty looking and with what look like over sharpening artifacts.

What is worse is color moire is removed, but with significant color spill between fabrics of different colors.

Is the new "engine" doing something to the file that makes the moire tool not works so well?

Here is the original, best results with CO7 and photoshop. Tried all the moire setting in CO7...



Keep in mind the photoshop moire removal requires two layers and some quick marking
with a layer mask.

Having read this in the press release:

Quote
A Revolution in Image Quality
Advancements in the Capture One raw processing engine yield vastly more accurate
rendition of details and colors.

I was expecting to see an improvement in moire handling especially considering the Moire problems of medium format backs.

The shot above was shot with an IQ140
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FredBGG
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 07:21:22 PM »
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One other buggy thing is that for some reason more than once I could not get CO7 to respond to setting the Moire slider back to zero or changing it in any way.
The slider would move, but it would not change the setting. Even restarting did not work. Even re-importing the image did not work unless I changed the file name before importing.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 07:31:45 PM »
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One other buggy thing is that for some reason more than once I could not get CO7 to respond to setting the Moire slider back to zero or changing it in any way.
The slider would move, but it would not change the setting. Even restarting did not work. Even re-importing the image did not work unless I changed the file name before importing.

Hi Fred,

For the few samples of moiré I tried (my 1Ds3 has an AA-filter, although I can still generate some artifacts when I try), the Capture One Pro 7 'Pattern' control didn't seem to have much effect. I don't know if that's a bug or not, just mentioning what I experience.

Cheers,
Bart

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FredBGG
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 07:53:31 PM »
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Hi Fred,

For the few samples of moiré I tried (my 1Ds3 has an AA-filter, although I can still generate some artifacts when I try), the Capture One Pro 7 'Pattern' control didn't seem to have much effect. I don't know if that's a bug or not, just mentioning what I experience.

Cheers,
Bart



I was getting both amount and pattern to stop responding.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 07:55:28 PM »
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Anyone have a way to remove the luminance moire pattern in CO7?
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benmar
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 09:34:31 PM »
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I haven't used C1 7 yet, but this all looks like my experience with moire with C1 5 and 6. In C1 3x days I used the PhaseOne De-moirize plugin for Photoshop (plugin only worked through CS2 unfortunately, and Phase has never updated it for newer software) Yes, sometimes removing the color moire does leave a luminance moire behind that looks worse. As far as color bleed, sometimes I just have to process one variant of the file with moire correction, then process another without the correction. Then I layer them together in Photoshop using a layer mask to "paint in" the moire correction only where I really need it. I have had to painstakingly clone out luminance moire patterns manually, evening out the "zebra" effect by lightening the dark stripes and darkening the light ones.

I shoot tethered a lot, and whenever I spot moire, I test with the C1 moire tool. If I get luminance moire left behind, I use in-camera techniques - like stopping down a bunch so diffraction softens the details enough to lose the moire, or at least soften the definition enough that no luminance moire is left once the color moire is gone. Sometimes I layer (in Photoshop) a stopped-way-down capture with one at a wider (sharper) aperture, masking in the softer image only where it is really necessary, to take care of the moire.

Moire is a pain, and I cringe when I read people saying it's easy to "just correct in software". Sometimes it is, but often it is not.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 09:45:31 PM by benmar » Logged
EricWHiss
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 11:00:17 PM »
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Fred,
Just curious..... Are those your own images or like many of your posts just some you harvested from the internet that seemed suitable for your purposes?  I find C1 v7 to be really improved in handling of noise and fine detail, but of course I am using it with my own digital back, and my own images and not playing a theoretical 'what if' or can I find the worst case kind of game.  With the 80mp backs, I haven't seen much moire at all.  You should really make a point to try one some time.
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 11:46:36 PM »
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You state that one of the images is from Capture One, one is from Photoshop, and one is "original".  What the heck does "original" mean? 
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FredBGG
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 12:03:09 AM »
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Fred,
Just curious..... Are those your own images or like many of your posts just some you harvested from the internet that seemed suitable for your purposes?  I find C1 v7 to be really improved in handling of noise and fine detail, but of course I am using it with my own digital back, and my own images and not playing a theoretical 'what if' or can I find the worst case kind of game.  With the 80mp backs, I haven't seen much moire at all.  You should really make a point to try one some time.


It's an image for a title sequence I shoot and do design work on regularly, but what the hell has that got to do with the issue being discussed, especially considering that it's a crop of a frigging elbow in a jacket.
Also as far as I am aware ownership does not change performance of a camera.
Do you shoot fashion or celebrities in fashion in studio with strobes for a living?
Fabric is an issue. Can be an issue even with DSLRs with or without anti alias filters.

Regarding Moire and 80 MP backs sensors it can often help and it can also be more of a problem. It depends on the scale of the texture causing the moiree.
Sometimes one can get rid of moiree by moving closer or further away. There are also things that can be done with the fabric.
A wardrobe person I often use will wash new cloths and take a metal brush and brush away somewhat aggressively on the fabric so as to randomize it a bit more
so as too reduce the regularity that clashes with the fabric. This however is something I can't do to a celebrities own jacket....
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:30:02 AM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 12:15:14 AM »
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You state that one of the images is from Capture One, one is from Photoshop, and one is "original".  What the heck does "original" mean?  


From the dictionary...
Quote
Original
adjective
:belonging or pertaining to the origin  or beginning of something, or to a thing at its beginning: The book still has its original binding.

I think most people would get it.

But to be more precise by original I mean before doing any moiree correction. The one posted is CO7 with no moiree correction.
The photoshop is uncorrected CO7 opened in photoshop and then fixed using  a few tricks. There is no moiree filter on photoshop CS6.

One issue that is a problem with moiree is when the subject has lots of different colors in proximity. (Not the case in this photo.)
The problem with these situations is that most moire correction involves bluring color. This won't work in a situation with fine red embroidery on a
shinny black fabric without a lot of manual masking...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:22:11 AM by FredBGG » Logged
gazwas
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 02:22:14 AM »
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Try turning the details slider down under advanced noise reduction as this adds a weird noise pattern to uniform subjects IMO.

I think it is set to 50 by default which is way too high for my liking, 10-15 is much more natural.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 02:31:45 AM »
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Anyone have a way to remove the luminance moire pattern in CO7?
"clarity" with negative values (on a layer masking only the affected areas)*

another approach is to "clone" a variant, apply luminance NR (combined with moiree correction and/or negative clarity). process both the primary variant and the cloned variant and "paint in" the corrected areas on a layer in Photoshop.

edit: and yes, "gazwas" is right: reduce the value for "details" in the Advanced NR tab

* just noticed Clarity doesn't work on a layer in V7 for some reason.
The second approach does work, of course.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 03:04:11 AM by tho_mas » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 02:53:37 AM »
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Try turning the details slider down under advanced noise reduction as this adds a weird noise pattern to uniform subjects IMO.

I think it is set to 50 by default which is way too high for my liking, 10-15 is much more natural.

Hmmm I'll have to try this. However the luminance pattern (bands) I am getting appears to get worse after using the moire removal.
When I do moiree removal in photoshop I use the green and pink/magenta artifacts to help reduce the bands. I use hue shifts to balance out the luminance
thanks to the fact that the green vs pink/magenta bands correspond to the light and dark bands.
 

« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 03:14:34 AM by FredBGG » Logged
Bryan Conner
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 03:33:32 AM »
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From the dictionary...
I think most people would get it.

But to be more precise by original I mean before doing any moiree correction. The one posted is CO7 with no moiree correction.
The photoshop is uncorrected CO7 opened in photoshop and then fixed using  a few tricks. There is no moiree filter on photoshop CS6.

One issue that is a problem with moiree is when the subject has lots of different colors in proximity. (Not the case in this photo.)
The problem with these situations is that most moire correction involves bluring color. This won't work in a situation with fine red embroidery on a
shinny black fabric without a lot of manual masking...

No, most people would not get it.  In the case of your use, the original could only be the original raw file.  Any thing other than that is not an original.  The raw file has to be converted....therefore is not the original.  I appreciate you clarifying with the further information. 
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 08:34:55 AM »
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* just noticed Clarity doesn't work on a layer in V7 for some reason.
The second approach does work, of course.

Clarity does work on a layer in v7 if C1 is working properly. Perhaps you were using a clarity without the "adjust selected layer" option selected? Or perhaps a bug? Or perhaps you are still running beta 2 in which this did not work yet?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 08:39:58 AM »
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Color moire reduction should always be placed on an adjustment layer and brushed in to the required areas; this will avoid the color bleed issue and most other deleterious effects of the moire reduction math. I think C1 does a great job of this. If you apply it to the entire image (except in very small amounts) things will not go well for you.

The "pattern" refers to the width (in pixels) of the bands of color, the higher you set it the more you'll see color bleed into adjacent colors by definition since it is blurring color to that extent.  "amount" of course is just the strength of the adjustment.

Minor luminance moire can be partially masked by a negative clarity or negative structure, but this is not a solution, just a bandaid. Luminance moire is a real bear to remove; the best approach is usually in photoshop using information from one of the channels (almost always the luminance moire is absent in either Red, Blue, or Green channels).
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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tho_mas
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 09:28:49 AM »
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Clarity does work on a layer in v7 if C1 is working properly. Perhaps you were using a clarity without the "adjust selected layer" option selected? Or perhaps a bug? Or perhaps you are still running beta 2 in which this did not work yet?
thanks, Doug! "Adjust selected layer" is selected and I am not running Beta 2 anymore but the final Pro7 version. So it seems to be a bug on my machine.

Minor luminance moire can be partially masked by a negative clarity or negative structure, but this is not a solution, just a bandaid. Luminance moire is a real bear to remove; the best approach is usually in photoshop using information from one of the channels (almost always the luminance moire is absent in either Red, Blue, or Green channels).
agree to the Photoshop approach... but the initial question was how to remove moire whithin C1. In C1 you can only use all the tools that apply some kind of "blur" ...
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 10:38:31 AM »
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thanks, Doug! "Adjust selected layer" is selected and I am not running Beta 2 anymore but the final Pro7 version. So it seems to be a bug on my machine.
agree to the Photoshop approach... but the initial question was how to remove moire whithin C1. In C1 you can only use all the tools that apply some kind of "blur" ...

My comment may have sounded overly harsh - "band aids" aren't a bad thing. Better than nothing and for minor cases of moire probably good enough to avoid photoshop (given the benefits of staying in a raw-only workflow). It's a solid suggestion.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 11:45:03 AM »
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The "pattern" refers to the width (in pixels) of the bands of color, the higher you set it the more you'll see color bleed into adjacent colors by definition since it is blurring color to that extent.  "amount" of course is just the strength of the adjustment.


I think the limitation of the moire tool in CO7 is that it is not using hues and hue rotation to balance luminosity of the banding.

So basically the Moire tool in CO7 is a chroma blur (pattern) and a fader for intensity "amount".
Should be called something like that.

Using hue rotation to modify luminance "behind" the color banding should be the way to go.
It would also be nice to have an auto detection function that looks for areas of opposite color shifts that are in correspondence of high frequency fine detail
and create a mask with it where to have the color blur or shift applied.

I heard that Adobe is working on something like that for video where manual masking is way to laborious. However it is proving to be very complicated as
it is very difficult to cope with the jittering of moire between frames.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 11:53:38 AM »
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Minor luminance moire can be partially masked by a negative clarity or negative structure, but this is not a solution, just a bandaid. Luminance moire is a real bear to remove; the best approach is usually in photoshop using information from one of the channels (almost always the luminance moire is absent in either Red, Blue, or Green channels).

Using the clarity slider is not a solution for fabric as it alters the texture of the cloth too much... sort of turns tweed to felt (I'm exagerating a bit here but using this analogy
as an example)

Using information from just one of the color channels does not work most of the time. It's a bit better with neutral colors, but with more color that channels are just too different.

The best way is to use the color artifacting to even out the banding using hue rotation in a conversion to black and white and then add the color back in with the chroma blur fixing the color moire. The lucky thing is that the luminance artifacting corresponds to the luminance artifacting.
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