Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: About the Phase One / Hasselblad focusing  (Read 10395 times)
Emilmedia
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121



WWW
« on: November 16, 2012, 06:25:42 AM »
ReplyReply

So as i told you earlier i got to try the Phase One p65+ and a DF kit this week. I'm DEEP in love with the IQ and the feel of the image. Specially when i add a flash to the portraits i get such a great feeling to the light and control that the 5D mk II just cant give. However i'm not a big fan of the focus system on the DF camera body. How is your experience on the Hasselblad bodies (from the h3d, h3dII, h4d and h5d)?
Logged

evgeny
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 481



« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 08:16:14 AM »
ReplyReply

The Hasselblad True Focus helps to get almost all photos in focus for static and relatively static subjects, such as models. Also compare weight, handling and quality of construction of the camera body and lenses. IQ is a good back, but complete DF system is not as great as Hasselblad H4D/H5D.

Evgeny
Logged
Ed Foster, Jr.
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 09:44:36 AM »
ReplyReply

Emil,

I find True Focus to be excellent for "eye focus" in portraits using the 100 f/2.2. I too like the integrated system of body and back and believe that it provides superb skin tones and very smooth tonal gradations. For me, the ergonomics are very natural and intuitive. But you know, the bottom line is, you need to try a couple of systems for yourself and determine if it fits your needs.

Good Luck,
Ed
Logged

Ed Foster, Jr.
www.edfoster.net
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 11:18:38 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi Emil

I took a look at your portfolio.....

by the way this photo made me laugh!!!!



It's brilliant.... such an original concept and as cut as it gets. I think you also touched on something that
is every babies secret wish.... bombing Mon in a bubble bath Cheesy

Anyway going back to focus... I saw in your portfolio the you use very shallow depth of field often.
The Mamiya DF is not up to the task. It is limited by having only three not very defined focusing points
that are also to close to the center of the frame. Unless the eyes of the subject are centered in the frame you will
not get accurate crisp focus. Nothing remotely close to the 5D II, despite the focusing of the 5D being quite modest by current DSLR standards.
The focusing on the DF is quite slow. It has two settings. Fast and Accurate. In accurate mode the focusing hunts for the focus and when it "finds it"
it refocuses doing a fine focus correction. This is accurate provided you don't recompose. In fast mode it just does one hunt with out the fine focus correction.
However this is not accurate and the manual recommends shooting stopped down to at least f8.


The Hasselblad system is a bit better, but True Focus is way over rated. Even Hasselblad stated in a white paper that it isn't really effective on lenses from the 80mm up.
While they say True Focus has absolute position lock it actually does not. It only detects changes in camera angle.
The slightest move forwards or backwards when recomposing will throw focus off.

Here is the link to the Hasselblad White paper called "WHEN TRUE FOCUS MAKES A DIFFERENCE".

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/2234814/when%20true%20focus%20makes%20a%20difference.pdf

Of the two systems the Hasselblad is better, but you have to be very good at using it. Personally if find that continuous
Focus and recompose is annoying to use and irritating for the subject. When focusing and recomposing with a heavy camera it is very
easy to end up moving a 1cm or 2 especially if your position isn't totally stable due to the angle you want to shoot from.... like crouching or stretching for extra hight.

The Pentax 645D has the best focusing system, but you are limited to a 44x33mm sensor.

Now that said both Hasselblad and Phase one have updated their focusing systems.
However I would not hold your breath. Improvements in the past have been very modest.
Phase one announced user focus calibration, but it still appears to be limited by only three focus points
and there is no focus and recompose correction.
Hasselblad now calls it's system True Focus II and says it has improved algorithms.

You should test them both, but do your tests side by side with a 5d mark III or D800 so as to really gauge what you will be dealing with.

Really the best way to work with shallow depth of field with an MF camera is to manually focus and use a high magnification
waist level finder. The Phase on DF does not have that option and the Hasselbld H does have a waist level finder, but it is unusable for vertical portraits.
The best modern MF DSLR for shallow depth of field work is the Rollie Hy6 with it's waist level finder.

You mentioned that you liked using flash with the DF. If it's the high speed sync you liked keep in mind two things.
First Hasselblad is only one stop behind at 1/800th instead of 1/1600th.
Second you can do high speed sync with Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras and the right type of flash, either Speedlights or strobes
using the right techniques. Not quite as simple as using a leaf shutter.

See this thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=71679.0


 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:36:16 AM by FredBGG » Logged
Emilmedia
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121



WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 12:09:10 PM »
ReplyReply

Hey Fred! It really makes me glad you like it!

The short DoF portraits i will still be taking with my Canon. I will not abandon that kit. Where i live (north of sweden) we have a very low light situation 65% of the year. During summers i might be able to use the medium format hand held. But i tried it today mid day and at iso 100 and f2,8 i had to have a shutter of 1/40. Thats just not fast enough. I have to go iso 400 and f2 to get a decent shutter speed. No medium format camera handles that good enough. Maybe the IQ180 with sensor +. But that prise is way over my league.

I'm starting to build up a commercial type portfolio. And thats the work i'm aiming to get more of. So its for that type of work i'm going to use a MF camera. I'm just deeply in love with the feeling, colors and control. Feeling and colors out of camera was the reason i chose canon over nikon. And yeah, sharpness and dynamic range is better then on my Canon. But thats not the primary reason.

I'm probably going to mover over to the new high res canon camera when that comes to replace my 5D MK II. When ever that is, a year or two.


Interesting read on the true focus. In other words its really not that good for recomposing. Do you know how many focus points the hasselblads have. And from what series camera do they have true focus?

If i compare ha h3d-39 camera system, and its focus. Is it similar to the DF kit?
Logged

Emilmedia
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121



WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 12:10:35 PM »
ReplyReply

Emil,

I find True Focus to be excellent for "eye focus" in portraits using the 100 f/2.2. I too like the integrated system of body and back and believe that it provides superb skin tones and very smooth tonal gradations. For me, the ergonomics are very natural and intuitive. But you know, the bottom line is, you need to try a couple of systems for yourself and determine if it fits your needs.

Good Luck,
Ed

Hey Ed.

Yes, i'm going to try it out. The thing is, there is no reseller within 600 kilometers. So i want to research before i ask them to send me a loaner or i find someone here i can borrow it from! Wich camera do you have?
Logged

Emilmedia
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121



WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 12:12:38 PM »
ReplyReply

The Hasselblad True Focus helps to get almost all photos in focus for static and relatively static subjects, such as models. Also compare weight, handling and quality of construction of the camera body and lenses. IQ is a good back, but complete DF system is not as great as Hasselblad H4D/H5D.

Evgeny

Hey Evgeny!

The IQ back is above the price i'm willing to pay for a kit. But i'm thinking of getting the p65+ kit. But i have not decided on if i go with a H or DF body. Or if i should start off with a h3dii-39 or h3d-39 or save up for another 6-7 months and buy the p65+ directly. Have you tried the h3d or h3dII?
Logged

FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »
ReplyReply

True Focus was introduced in the H4D. The H3D does not have it.
Logged
evgeny
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 481



« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 12:52:31 PM »
ReplyReply

I tried DF and was not impressed, or better say disappointed.
I listed a few, but very important for me, reasons in the previous post, and I can add more, like fixed DF prism and lenses that look cheap and probably have plastic parts, but ever these few reasons are quite enough to avoid the DF. I not saw DF+, but from what I already heard, it is a next disappointment.

All digital back are good and produce excellent pictures. Therefore it is really matters to select the better complete system.

Leica has the best lenses, DF has a one stop faster sync speed, Pentax is the least expensive.

The H4D/H5D have a fewer than Leica very high quality lenses (28, 50II, 100, 120II Macro, 45-90, and I should add the HTS 1.5 tilt/shift adapter, and may be new 24mm lens), which actually cover all photographer's needs.
Overall the H4D/H5D is the most complete and power system. Try it and decide yourself.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 12:56:29 PM by evgeny » Logged
henrikfoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 708


« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 01:09:14 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi Emil!

I think you will be very happy with H4x and a P65+ or a P45+.
Hasselblad has the best camera if you don't think about the Rollei hy6 II.

Henrik
Logged
Emilmedia
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121



WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 01:20:19 PM »
ReplyReply

I think i'm going to want something thats at least sold in the country. Smiley do rollei make prism finders? I'm not so comfortable with waist level finders.
Logged

Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2818


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2012, 01:25:56 PM »
ReplyReply

The IQ back is above the price i'm willing to pay for a kit. But i'm thinking of getting the p65+ kit. But i have not decided on if i go with a H or DF body. Or if i should start off with a h3dii-39 or h3d-39 or save up for another 6-7 months and buy the p65+ directly. Have you tried the h3d or h3dII?

Please remember that most of Hasselblad's camera systems are locked/closed. You can only use the specific body you own with the specific back you own. If you purchase and H3D or H3DII you will not be able to just "buy the P65+ directly" and use it on your H3. With an H1, H2, or H4x - their open platform systems - you can match any Phase back to any body.
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
henrikfoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 708


« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2012, 01:51:35 PM »
ReplyReply

I think i'm going to want something thats at least sold in the country. Smiley do rollei make prism finders? I'm not so comfortable with waist level finders.


The Rollei has different prism finders also. Brighter than both the DF and Hasselblad H.
And the AF is the best in the MF-world.

Personally I have the H4x and the DF. Hate the DF, love the H4x!!

Henrik
Logged
Ed Foster, Jr.
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2012, 02:13:11 PM »
ReplyReply

Hey Ed.

 Wich camera do you have?

I have the H4D31, which was the first series in which they implemented True Focus.

Good Luck,
Ed
Logged

Ed Foster, Jr.
www.edfoster.net
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2012, 04:19:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Please remember that most of Hasselblad's camera systems are locked/closed. You can only use the specific body you own with the specific back you own.

Are the single body units only matched to a single back unit as well as based on ownership? You can't rent a backup back?



« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 04:35:45 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Emilmedia
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 121



WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2012, 04:38:41 PM »
ReplyReply

Please remember that most of Hasselblad's camera systems are locked/closed. You can only use the specific body you own with the specific back you own. If you purchase and H3D or H3DII you will not be able to just "buy the P65+ directly" and use it on your H3. With an H1, H2, or H4x - their open platform systems - you can match any Phase back to any body.

Yeah I know that I would have to trade up the whole kit! That's why I'm asking about the focus on the old and new houses Smiley
Logged

bcooter
Guest
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2012, 04:54:01 PM »
ReplyReply

I spent about an hour playing around with an H4d and a DF (don't think it was a plus) when we tested some kinos at the large L.A. camera store.

This wasn't anything close to a serious shoot, but I did put the focus on both cameras through some different testing and I thought they both auto focused well.

The DF was good and snapped into focus and held it even shooting a subject at a distance framed by two subjects in the foreground.  The light was medium overhead florescent so it wasn't very bright.

The Hasselblad also focused as faster, maybe slightly faster and also held focus.  Nearly all the frames I shot with the DF and the blad were sharp.

The only difference I noticed between the two cameras were the DF finder view is much smaller than the hasselblad, the DF seemed like a longer camera than the blad and with the H series i could manual focus with accuracy and the DF I couldn't. 

Once again autofocus was fine with the DF and the body was much nicer than any mamiya 645 I've ever held.

Now, if I was buying, I'd probably like a hasselblad with the Leaf Credo back, (because I really like the Leaf interface),  but don't think I'd want to go through the hassel of buying a used blad, to get an h4x.  I just don't have the time to jump through hoops.

I must admit the DF did feel better in my hand as I'm not that wild about the Hasselblad grip.  It's not a deal breaker but it's not the most comfortable camera I've ever held either.

I also didn't see a focus confirmation light on the DF which surprised me.  Not that I use that much on my contax(s) but when I do it's a nice feature.

IMO

BC
Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2012, 06:53:15 PM »
ReplyReply



I also didn't see a focus confirmation light on the DF which surprised me.  Not that I use that much on my contax(s) but when I do it's a nice feature.

IMO

BC

The DF does have a focus confirmation light, but if your eye isn't aligned right in the finder it tends to not be very visible.
It also has direction suggesting arrows.
Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2012, 08:00:35 PM »
ReplyReply

Here is a test done with the Mamiya DF to illustrate the focus and recompose problem.

Shot with the 80mm at f2.8 and on a panoramic head to keep the distance locked and locked better than any hand held re composition.

The first photo shows the extent of the re composition that is actually quite minor.
About what one would do to do a potrait with a "rule of 1/3rds" composition.



Here is a crop of the feature before recomposition:



Here is a crop after the re composition:


One can clearly see the focus shift. This would result in blured eyes.

It isn't because of the slightly lower sharpness furthur away from the sweet spot of the lens as you can see from the increase in detail
marked by the red arrow due to the focus shift.




Here are the two crops animated on top of each other to see the difference clearly



This type of problem is resolved with certain limitations with Hasselblad True Focus.
You just have to be really careful not to move at all during re composition and to do it slowly enough for the angle (motion) sensor True focus to work.
Also I have seen that any significant vibration like loud music base or a truck going by will kill precision of the motion detector.
Use short focal lengths. True Focus can't measure the smaller angles involved in re composition with longer lenses as precisely. This is
an issue as the depth of field of longer lenses is razor thin.
Oh and the model should not move. Or in some cases even breath;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:54:22 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Anders_HK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1001



WWW
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2012, 04:52:19 AM »
ReplyReply

Hasselblad has the best camera if you don't think about the Rollei hy6 II.
 Grin

The Rollei has different prism finders also. Brighter than both the DF and Hasselblad H.
And the AF is the best in the MF-world.

You can read of the Hy6 story, and of details of the system here rolleiflexpages.com.

Recent at Photokina;
Hasselblad - made lots of rumble of something complete new, and delivered improvements in same old body with now metal panels...
Mamiya/PhaseOne camera - even more mediocre improvements in DF+, and to chock for all in much same old clunky body as was AF, AFD, AFDII, AFDIII, DF...
DHW announced Hy6 Mod2 and that they had been given rights to further develop the camera!!!

Of above, Hassy and Mamiya/PhaseOne ask you to sell off what you have and come with fresh $$ to buy a new body. DHW simply offers a reasonable upgrade for existing camera to internals of to Mod2...

Hy6 finders? I very much enjoy the WLF myself. I have also tried the 45 degree and 90 degree finders. The 45 degree is the brighter of the two and with larger view, but not same bright as WLF and not same large view. I also suggest to consider... the less high you need to lift camera, the more steady you can hold it, which I have found very important with an 80MP back. If not WLF, I would suggest the 45 degree. However, the WLF comes with the camera... so you could give it a go first and see if you like it, or not. It does make more compact... Regardless, there are choices.

Hy6 ergonomics? Best handling and best balanced medium format camera for digital back. Period.

Hy6 AF? I find it very very precise. Nope, it is not DSLR quick. Arguably much more precise. Funny, what was that in above about Mamiya three focus points??? Another Google search by Fred??? I had AFDIII and DSLR in past. DSLR has many focus points, sure... care to tell me which one focus on that eye??? With Hy6 the focus area is a tad larger than DSLR, but very very precise. The main difficulty in portrait and high resolution back is to focus precise at same plane as the pupil in eye when using shallow DOF. Else focus will be somewhere else (e.g. eye brow) and pupil will not be sharp.

For Hy6 there is option of new Credo back or the AFi-II backs. The Credo offer the iPhone like interface, but the AFi-II offers rotating sensor and tilt display. Mine is AFi-II 12 (80MP) and I much enjoy both rotating sensor and tilt screen.

Hy6 = one of best cameras I have used period.
Rolleiflex lenses = 80/2.8 Xenotar is glued to my camera, best wonderful character lens I have ever owned, very sharp and lovely out of focus and shallow DOF.
... my 50 FLE is likewise top notch... heck all recent Rolleiflex seem to be so, and close or on pair with large format digital lenses!!!

Sold in States? Important? You can buy factory direct from Germany. My contact at DHW is direct with CEO for service and support..., yet check with Capture Integration in States. I believe they are looking into it...

Leaf? I much enjoyed the image quality of my prior 28MP Leaf Aptus 65, but for landscapes it was something missing per my eye as far as colors and ability for transition into highlights, thus I maintained using also some film. The image quality of Leaf AFi-II 12 has made me drop film. Pixels aside - it is significant better than prior backs, more correct colors, more pleasing rendering of colors, finer gradation of tones, broader DR, more shadow detail, better shadow response... and I assume the more pixels help. 80MP means you can crop for image within image. These said, I am yet to upgrade to Capture One 7, which should improve these even more.

Compared to Mamiya? I never liked ZD camera, AFD, AFDIII, but did like Mamiya 7. The 645 lenses? Had 45D, 28D, 300 APO, 55-110, 35AF, 105-210, 24 Fish, 80/1.9 and more. The one I liked was 80/1.9, but my Rolleiflex Schneider 80/2.8 using larger sensor blows it straight out of water. Want more shallow DOF for up close, add extender ring. Works great.

I hope above helps  Wink

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 05:00:05 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad