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Author Topic: About the Phase One / Hasselblad focusing  (Read 10562 times)
KLaban
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2012, 05:07:54 AM »
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Ugh, yet another 'mine is bigger than yours' thread.
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Aryan Aqajani
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2012, 05:58:24 AM »
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 Grin

You can read of the Hy6 story, and of details of the system here rolleiflexpages.com.

Recent at Photokina;
Hasselblad - made lots of rumble of something complete new, and delivered improvements in same old body with now metal panels...
Mamiya/PhaseOne camera - even more mediocre improvements in DF+, and to chock for all in much same old clunky body as was AF, AFD, AFDII, AFDIII, DF...
DHW announced Hy6 Mod2 and that they had been given rights to further develop the camera!!!

Of above, Hassy and Mamiya/PhaseOne ask you to sell off what you have and come with fresh $$ to buy a new body. DHW simply offers a reasonable upgrade for existing camera to internals of to Mod2...

Hy6 finders? I very much enjoy the WLF myself. I have also tried the 45 degree and 90 degree finders. The 45 degree is the brighter of the two and with larger view, but not same bright as WLF and not same large view. I also suggest to consider... the less high you need to lift camera, the more steady you can hold it, which I have found very important with an 80MP back. If not WLF, I would suggest the 45 degree. However, the WLF comes with the camera... so you could give it a go first and see if you like it, or not. It does make more compact... Regardless, there are choices.

Hy6 ergonomics? Best handling and best balanced medium format camera for digital back. Period.

Hy6 AF? I find it very very precise. Nope, it is not DSLR quick. Arguably much more precise. Funny, what was that in above about Mamiya three focus points??? Another Google search by Fred??? I had AFDIII and DSLR in past. DSLR has many focus points, sure... care to tell me which one focus on that eye??? With Hy6 the focus area is a tad larger than DSLR, but very very precise. The main difficulty in portrait and high resolution back is to focus precise at same plane as the pupil in eye when using shallow DOF. Else focus will be somewhere else (e.g. eye brow) and pupil will not be sharp.

For Hy6 there is option of new Credo back or the AFi-II backs. The Credo offer the iPhone like interface, but the AFi-II offers rotating sensor and tilt display. Mine is AFi-II 12 (80MP) and I much enjoy both rotating sensor and tilt screen.

Hy6 = one of best cameras I have used period.
Rolleiflex lenses = 80/2.8 Xenotar is glued to my camera, best wonderful character lens I have ever owned, very sharp and lovely out of focus and shallow DOF.
... my 50 FLE is likewise top notch... heck all recent Rolleiflex seem to be so, and close or on pair with large format digital lenses!!!

Sold in States? Important? You can buy factory direct from Germany. My contact at DHW is direct with CEO for service and support..., yet check with Capture Integration in States. I believe they are looking into it...

Leaf? I much enjoyed the image quality of my prior 28MP Leaf Aptus 65, but for landscapes it was something missing per my eye as far as colors and ability for transition into highlights, thus I maintained using also some film. The image quality of Leaf AFi-II 12 has made me drop film. Pixels aside - it is significant better than prior backs, more correct colors, more pleasing rendering of colors, finer gradation of tones, broader DR, more shadow detail, better shadow response... and I assume the more pixels help. 80MP means you can crop for image within image. These said, I am yet to upgrade to Capture One 7, which should improve these even more.

Compared to Mamiya? I never liked ZD camera, AFD, AFDIII, but did like Mamiya 7. The 645 lenses? Had 45D, 28D, 300 APO, 55-110, 35AF, 105-210, 24 Fish, 80/1.9 and more. The one I liked was 80/1.9, but my Rolleiflex Schneider 80/2.8 using larger sensor blows it straight out of water. Want more shallow DOF for up close, add extender ring. Works great.

I hope above helps  Wink

Best regards,
Anders

I really appreciate it if you can give answer to the following questions!

  • How much is Hy6 Mod2?
  • Is it possible to use DM22 or P25+ back on it?
  • Is it possible to rotate DM22 back on it like the way it works on RZ67?
  • What is the widest lens for this system? And it's price?
  • Is there any tilt/shift adapter?

Thank you Smiley
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Aryan Aqajani - Photographer in Melbourne, Australia
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JerryReed
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 06:47:26 AM »
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Anders - I received the Rolleiflex Hy6 V2 and am working on finding a 3.5 + diopter for the 45 degree finder.  If you have any leads, will you please let me know?  jerry@jerryreed.net

Jerry
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 07:06:24 AM »
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a liitle off topic, but is there a "ignore button" for certain users?
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Don Libby
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2012, 10:39:21 AM »
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a liitle off topic, but is there a "ignore button" for certain users?


Heinrich - yes there is as has been pointed out to me very recently.

Go to your Profile and in "Personal Message Options" you'll find the "Ignorelist" type in the name then make sure you hit the "Change Profile" button on the bottom right corner. 

It works!

Don

Hopefully the moderators are keeping track....
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FredBGG
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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2012, 11:01:32 AM »
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Heinrich - yes there is as has been pointed out to me very recently.

Go to your Profile and in "Personal Message Options" you'll find the "Ignorelist" type in the name then make sure you hit the "Change Profile" button on the bottom right corner. 

It works!

Don

Hopefully the moderators are keeping track....

Only works for personal messages. For the rest just look away Wink
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FredBGG
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2012, 11:40:15 AM »
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Funny, what was that in above about Mamiya three focus points??? Another Google search by Fred??? I had AFDIII and DSLR in past. DSLR has many focus points, sure... care to tell me which one focus on that eye???
Best regards,
Anders

Not really interested in responding to Anders's provocation, but I'll respond to the questions with all those question marks;) in the interest of other readers


First of all I do not need to do a google search to know that the DF only has 3 focus points. I owned both the Phase One DF645 and the Phase One AF645.
Both have the same focus point layout. No indication is given as to which focus point locks focus, but you can manually choose the one you want to use.

Regarding 35mm DSLR cameras when you have 64 or 104 focus points you have a much higher chance of a focus point being on the eyes or face.

Like here where i was shooting for 5x4 aspect ratio.





There are times where the eye will not fall behind a focus point, but in that case there will be one close by. Thanks to it being close by there will be less focus error
when recomposing. Also if the photographer is composing with the face quite far away from the center of the frame there is the option of using live view focus.
With live view focus the focusing point can be moved to any point on the screen and quite quickly with the joy stick. Some cameras even have face detection or feature detection.

With the D800 feature detection AF works like this.

First in non live view mode:
 You set the AF mode to 3D focus. In this setup the focusing system uses a single focus point
as a target. Start by pointing the chosen focus point closest to where you will be placing the feature to focus on. Then if you change the composition
the system will choose the cameras focusing point that is closest to the remembered feature. The area where focus adjustments are made is limited to the
total area of the focus points. When you go beyond that area the focus stops at where the last available focus point left off.

Second in live view mode:
 In live view mode there are two tracking options. Face detect and feature tracking. Both work in a similar way, but face detection is
based on automatic face detection (camera "knows" what faces look like) and feature detection requires a snapshot (needs to be told what to look for).
With face detection it looks for for a face in the frame and targets it for focus and will follow the face around the frame doing it's best to keep it in focus.
It is actually really quite fast, but not as fast as phase detection.
With feature detection you switch to target focus. You get a square to start with and press the center button of the multi function control on either the
body or vertical grip. This tells the camera what to look for and the camera will follow this feature around the frame and even if the photographer or subject move forwards or backwards. The feature can change size and still be followed accurately.

Here is a video that shows the live view focus tracking.

http://youtu.be/JzIxNOBPaaM

Here are a few quick tests to show how well the different focus options on the d800 work in situations where with a single
focus point you would have to recompose.

The first one is regular viewfinder focusing, but instead of using the center most focusing point I used the one closest
to the top right corner and then recomposed putting the subject right up in the right hand corner. Focus is on the ledge
under the numbers. 100% crop





The following shot is using live view focusing using using a manual set focusing point with the joystick/multifuction button
with the subject in the top right hand corner. 100% crop




The following was shot using live view target mode. First the target is set using the multi function button.
Then I recomposed and the live view focusing tracks the subject. I moved the subject around the frame
and had the tracking follow. I then chose the composition with the subject in the top right corner of the frame.
Stopped for a fraction of a second and shot the frame. 100% crop




The following photo was taken with the face recognition live view method. In doing this test I moved around so as to somewhat simulate a model
making changes to a pose. I even did some figure of 8s with the camera to challenge the live view focusing. I also move forward an backwards.
The final composition was again with the subject in the top right of the frame. What is very nice about the facial recognition focusing is that
the size of the focusing box scales continuously with size of the face hence producing accurate focus. 50% crop to keep some text in the shot.



One other really neat feature of face recognition with the D800 is face review after shooting.
Regardless of what focusing method was used when reviewing a photo you can quickly look at a closeup
of each face. This is really handy if you are shooting groups on location.
It is also really useful if you are shooting two models in one shot with a tilt shift lens wide open and one model close
and one model furthur away. Like in this shot:


Shot on film, just using it to describe the setup.
Top is without tilt bottom is with tilt.

Here is how after the fact face recognition works when reviewing images.

http://youtu.be/yNajUFMpISs

This is also useful when reviewing a fashion accessory shot. I did a shot where I wanted an accessory to be in focus as well as the face, but shoot wide
open for shallow depth of field and an 85mm tilt shift to focus face and purse. I would review the shot zooming in on the purse and then with no hunting around just one click of the front dial. It would find and zoom in on the face. This also works on HDMI output. Very handy for quick review on portable HDMI monitors.  

In conclusion. While there are some gradual improvements in AF and focus review with medium format cameras many issues remain to be addressed.  
This is particularly relevant if one keeps in mind that one of the repeated marketing points of Medium Format is shallow depth of field.
Hasselblad with true focus has at leased addressed the recompose issue with shorter focal lengths.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:16:37 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Don Libby
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2012, 11:54:10 AM »
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Only works for personal messages. For the rest just look away Wink

Once again contrary to what Fred believes - he's proven wrong.

When you are ignoring a particular (or is that peculiar) individual you are greeted with the following message:  "Your are ignoring this user.  Show me the post.

And yes Fred I did click on the link.....
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FredBGG
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2012, 12:04:45 PM »
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Once again contrary to what Fred believes - he's proven wrong.

When you are ignoring a particular (or is that peculiar) individual you are greeted with the following message:  "Your are ignoring this user.  Show me the post.

And yes Fred I did click on the link.....


Proven wrong?Huh? I said you have to look away...

You still have to look away. It only hides the body of the post, but tempts you to read it....

Why ignore and then click on the link Wink. Isn't that like sticking your head under the sand with your bottom in the air.....
and pulling your head up when someone slaps your bottom.... Cheesy Just kidding Wink

Ah Ha... gottcha..... so you don't ignore my posts Wink
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 12:43:08 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Don Libby
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2012, 12:56:33 PM »
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Sadly it only works when you're logged in. Roll Eyes
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Emilmedia
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2012, 01:14:23 PM »
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Stop the kindergarten bashing. I think Fred does make some great points and i do know he likes the d800. And i know other people like other cameras. I'm def going medium format, not sure wich one to buy yet. But Why is everyone so offended by someones choice of camera?
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bcooter
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2012, 01:41:34 PM »
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Honestly, if anyone wants to improve focus accuracy on any camera, use a good tripod with a good head.  Everything get's easier than mobility.

I start with a tripod but must admit, that under a lot of conditions move away from it, but when we review the files from any format, the ones on a tripod are more tack sharp than the ones without, regardless of lighting, movement, camera, shutter, etc.

IMO

BC
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2012, 02:14:24 PM »
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Only works for personal messages. For the rest just look away Wink

I'm trying to ignore somebody else.  Grin


@ Don: thanks, it does work perfectly
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 03:12:34 PM by heinrichvoelkel » Logged
David Watson
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« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2012, 02:27:23 PM »
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Are the single body units only matched to a single back unit as well as based on ownership? You can't rent a backup back?

No you cannot rent a backup back but actually you can rent an entire camera for similar amounts to the rental cost of a P1.  In addition it is the mechanical parts of the camera that are more likely to fail and you can buy or rent a backup body - go figure?
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David Watson ARPS
FredBGG
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« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2012, 02:34:11 PM »
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Honestly, if anyone wants to improve focus accuracy on any camera, use a good tripod with a good head.  Everything get's easier than mobility.

I start with a tripod but must admit, that under a lot of conditions move away from it, but when we review the files from any format, the ones on a tripod are more tack sharp than the ones without, regardless of lighting, movement, camera, shutter, etc.

IMO

BC

While a tripod will certainly increase sharpness of an image in most situations and facilitate accurate finding of focus both manually and in AF it will not really help much with the focus and recompose issue. The focal plane will still move away from the eyes when re composing. Just the fact that the fulcrum of the rotation of the head is below the camera it will make the camera closer to the subject when you tilt down.

That said I very much like to work with  a camera stand. In studio I like to use a relatively small column stand with it very well balanced.
However I like to bring my own head that is a legacy Fatif large format head. It has far better locking and friction control. It uses very easy to service and clean parts.
It have made both long and short arms for it. Very little rotation of the knobs is needed to free, friction or lock the movements.

Here is a shot of the head:



I have a few fancy ball heads, but I end up going back to the trusty olf Fatif head.
I don't think it's made anymore.
 

I also like to put just the right counter balance on the column stand. Once it is well balanced I can take the locks off and literally walk around the studio holding the head grips and the column stand just rolls around with me. I also changed the wheels on my column stand to high performance  roller blade type wheels for smoother rolling.

Funny thing is that one day I showed up to shoot an a-list actor on a film set in an airport hanger. I had a studio column stand delivered and when I went in to
mount my head on it the camera operator was mounting his own wheels onto the mitchell motion picture gear head...... he said he knows his wheels better and they are the older more rounded ones. We had a laugh and took the piss out of eachother Wink
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 02:51:31 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2012, 02:37:56 PM »
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No you cannot rent a backup back but actually you can rent an entire camera for similar amounts to the rental cost of a P1.  In addition it is the mechanical parts of the camera that are more likely to fail and you can buy or rent a backup body - go figure?

Most photographers buy backup camera bodies. I had Two Phase one bodies, but one back. Sometimes I would rent a second back.
It's also nice not to rent a second body because of all the menu settings.

How would that work for a Hasselblad H4D system. Can a photographer have a complete camera and a second body as a backup if it's the same model?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 02:44:27 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Anders_HK
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« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2012, 03:45:47 PM »
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I really appreciate it if you can give answer to the following questions!

  • How much is Hy6 Mod2?
  • Is it possible to use DM22 or P25+ back on it?
  • Is it possible to rotate DM22 back on it like the way it works on RZ67?
  • What is the widest lens for this system? And it's price?
  • Is there any tilt/shift adapter?

Thank you Smiley
Hi Aryan,

i. Price need to be confirmed, but some mentioning here; http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=68924.msg558322#msg558322
ii. The Hy6 require AFi back mount. DM22 has Mamiya. Phase One backs are regrettably not available in AFi mounts.
iii. It is not possible to rotate the back (though that was possible with a Sinar back for the Sinar version of Hy6, not sure if they fit on DHW Hy6 or not). The AFi-II backs enable rotating the sensor and that works excellent. Credo backs do not permit this.
iv. There is no tilt/shift adapter, but there is a tilt/shift lens. For tilt/shift, perhaps better with a tech camera?


Anders - I received the Rolleiflex Hy6 V2 and am working on finding a 3.5 + diopter for the 45 degree finder.  If you have any leads, will you please let me know?  jerry@jerryreed.net
Jerry
Hi Jerry,

I assume you mean Mod2? Great to hear of someone getting one! How do you like it?

Am afraid that I have no leads on diopter. Best bet is likely to contact DHW directly, e.g. by calling them http://rolleiflexpages.com/testsandinformation.html. If you have lots of big luck perhaps Igorcamera have one, since they do carry some used stock of Hy6.


Regarding 35mm DSLR cameras when you have 64 or 104 focus points you have a much higher chance of a focus point being on the eyes or face.
When shooting a model it can require a split second to capture a certain pose/mode/expression, at least to me a tad more complex to set one among those 999 points rather than using the one focus point on Hy6 and knowing what you precise place it upon... while estimate focus shift when recompose. Live view would simply add complexity in same situation... Shocked

Different tools of course. Yet this is about medium format, if in it for that and the qualities that brings, I frank do not understand why even discuss D800...

Stop the kindergarten bashing. I think Fred does make some great points and i do know he likes the d800. And i know other people like other cameras. I'm def going medium format, not sure wich one to buy yet. But Why is everyone so offended by someones choice of camera?
Much respect to others choice of camera, and sincerely. Simply we do not all have same preferences or requirements etc. There are indeed different preferences... which begs no wonder...
... when seems on this forum one mans crusade on MFD industry continue raging, 99% on google searches and not capable to post a single quality shot he has made himself with one of the MFD gear he claims to have owned...

Difficult not to comment on. Just sayin...  Wink

Ugh, yet another 'mine is bigger than yours' thread.
No. I speak very honest from my experience. Frankly, I did not like Mamiya 645 system and had problem and lost on ZD camera. Still, when comes to the Mamiya 7, Mamiya did get things very right and it was a very excellent camera system. So is Hy6 and lenses, and it frank gave me a very impressive pleasant surprise. So did the 80MP Leaf.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 03:59:42 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2012, 03:51:21 PM »
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How would that work for a Hasselblad H4D system. Can a photographer have a complete camera and a second body as a backup if it's the same model?

Yes.
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Emilmedia
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« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2012, 05:28:22 PM »
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Quote from: Anders_HK
Much respect to others choice of camera, and sincerely. Simply we do not all have same preferences or requirements etc. There are indeed different preferences... which begs no wonder...
... when seems on this forum one mans crusade on MFD industry continue raging, 99% on google searches and not capable to post a single quality shot he has made himself with one of the MFD gear he claims to have owned...

Difficult not to comment on. Just sayin...  Wink

Dude give it up, nobody cares. Mind your own business and stop putting in energy in complaining about what others think of the camera you use and what he thinks of the manufacturer.

Spend more time on those long helpful posts of yours instead!
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2012, 09:35:26 PM »
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Dude give it up, nobody cares. Mind your own business and stop putting in energy in complaining about what others think of the camera you use and what he thinks of the manufacturer.

Spend more time on those long helpful posts of yours instead!

That is nice. Believe you read me wrong. Why the heck would I care an ounce what others think of my camera?HuhHuh?? It will imminent be superseded in world camera history by tad newer gear. So what? I feel fortunte I (finally) found what feels photographically longterm works very well for me, a tool that helps for myself achieve pictures that keeps me content. That what matter in end to any individual I would think.

Apart from that, nothing in my experience changed since film, good MF, good 35mm based --- different. Simple.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 09:42:18 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
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