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Author Topic: epson 4900 ready to order first inkset....?  (Read 4040 times)
orchidblooms
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« on: November 16, 2012, 12:45:50 PM »
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have new - no warranty 4900...

was NOB - may have been refurb oir something...    seems to fully, work...

getting ready to order first set of carts...

i will be printing - flowers - nightscapes - and landscapes - i use a d800e / zeiss lenses to capture images - use cp1p7 ot acr7.2 to process...

and plan on usinf the 4900 to do lots of printing - color and bw

i see this fellow ross @ inkjetcarts.us

ofering some sort of refillable ink system for the 4900 that is much more affordable than the epson.... inks

i will be using breathing color pura smooth - their metallic - canson baryta - maybe moab lasal and a very good possibility Red River Polar Pearl Metallic...  eventually i will find some sort of nice matte paper for a very smooth, softer look for some of my flower images (I do a lot of bog trotting in MN...)

anyone with experience using these more affordable carts vs the epson carts - please weigh in... i would surely like to keep the weight drop in the pocket book to minimum!

huge thanks

p.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 01:08:51 PM »
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I have zero experience with that set-up, so I'm interested in seeing what others who have used it - intensively for at least a year - think about its quality and impact on the printer. But just so you'll know - given the kind of high quality papers you're using, it's the paper, not the ink, that is the biggest recurrent operating cost per print. And then IF the inks prematurely screw-up the printer - not saying they necessarily will - there's the premature cost of a new printer. To give you a flavour for the costs I'm incurring now (here in Toronto), when I print a 13*19 inch sheet of Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, the total print cost including 13% sales taxes is coming out at: machine depreciation 94 cents, paper 2.89, ink 1.09, for a total of 4.92. The ink cost does not include ink for cleanings because Epson has made it extremely difficult to estimate that, but for a 4900 I think I wouldn't add more than 5%~10% to the ink category. My maintenance tank, which captures ink that doesn't land on paper (21 dollars) lasted through about 560 of such prints, but Epson doesn't say how much ink that tank holds before it needs to be replaced.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 03:03:09 PM »
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I agree with mark, the risk of quality degradation and printer damage doesn't offset the small amount of ink savings.  I don't understand why anyone would want to print on $3 to $5 piece of high quality paper with something other than the best inks to save 50 cents.  If your going cost cutting all the way and using cheap paper, cheap ink because you can't sell the prints for enough to justify it, maybe.  But the cost of making a print is normally pretty small if you are selling your own work, and your putting your reputation as an artist on the line.
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irvweiner
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 05:44:53 PM »
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I have been using Ross Hardie's Inkjetcarts refillable system for my 3880 the last 2 yrs. I purchased the 3880 only when reliable robust ink & carts were available by several vendors:
InkRepublic
Jon Cone
Inkjetfly
Inkjetcarts

Initially only 120 ml carts were available, earlier this year 3880 80 ml carts made the scene. My cost to refill 80 ml carts dropped frpm $50+ to $9-14, depending on vendor chosen. Yes, ink can come from vendor A and carts from B! My ink usage includes Cone, Inkjetcarts and Inkjetfly.

I profile with the ColorMunki and/or Spyder. I am very satisfied, Color IQ is fine, B&W quality (even with ABW) mode is awesome on paper or canvas--Breathing Color Lyve, Crystalline or Vibrance Luster. For the 1st time ever, club members asked me: "Are you doing the printing yourself?".

I am a serious hobbyist, not a professional printer/photographer--the egregious cost of ink is not a business for me. Professionals should decide themselves whether to use OEM or 3rd party inks. After my extensive due diligence in choosing a 3rd party source I'm quite comfortable in recommending the inks from the above vendors to professionals, I and others have used and tested each. Visit the Inkjet Forum and DpReview's printer forum and read our posts. I have not experienced any 'clog' difficulties yet, I execute frequent nozzle checks as a precaution.

I recommend that you consider or at least try the 3rd party products, based on my experience your greatest difficulty will be determining which prints got 'whose' ink!

good luck   irv weiner
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orchidblooms
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 06:04:23 PM »
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I agree with mark, the risk of quality degradation and printer damage doesn't offset the small amount of ink savings. 

....  But the cost of making a print is normally pretty small if you are selling your own work,

Wayne - many thanks

i am not sure - it is no simple as you suggest...

ross suggests to me his inks 'are the same' as epson except the price...

not sure if this is part 'boardwalk barker' perhaps part fiction..... 

how does he get to these points of interest in his product?

it is a big claim in my opinion...

in reading his www, seems the initial layout 440.00  compared to the 11x for epson @ 85.00 ea...

then much more more affordable on refills - sure there is fiddling around...

but for me this is quite a bit of $$$ - and i am thinking - what is the 'real' difference...

hoping to hear from more folks

Smiley

p.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 06:09:19 PM »
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ross suggests to me his inks 'are the same' as epson except the price...


OK, let's stop right here: these ink formulations are proprietary, so the first question for him is how does he know this?

As to how the inks perform - they may look fine on paper, but what about their longevity? Have they been independently tested for degradation and fade-resistance by reliable, expert third parties?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
orchidblooms
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 07:38:15 PM »
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indeed mark...

i have posed questions to him...

i asked specifically how 'they' were different for the 4900...

the response... after i eluded to price difference....

"that's the difference the only difference."...

so... leaves me asking folks with experience... and leaning towords investing in carts purchased from local epson reseller...

any more users of these alternatives?  it is great irv is having good results - 2 years is a long time...  would like to hear more...

p.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:40:49 PM by orchidblooms » Logged
hugowolf
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 09:38:24 PM »
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I would doubt that you will hear from anyone about real differences, because there is so little longevity testing of third party ink. You will be looking at opinions not data. I am sure that with custom profiles, some third party ink will come close to matching the gamut of OEM ink.

The question becomes: what percentage of a print sale price does the ink cost represent?

There are plenty of users of third party inks, the question would be: how many them are selling prints and how many instead have walls covered with their own work?

Brian A
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orchidblooms
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 11:26:30 PM »
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.....

There are plenty of users of third party inks, the question would be: how many them are selling prints and how many instead have walls covered with their own work?

Brian A


sort of sums this issue up nicely...

...perhaps their mothers and in-laws walls are all, covered with these 3rd party ink prints...

Smiley

i am feeling very fortunate to have been able to get a new 4900 for such an affordable price, i will be getting the epson inks for this nifty machine...

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Alto
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 02:40:46 AM »
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I agree with mark, the risk of quality degradation and printer damage doesn't offset the small amount of ink savings.  I don't understand why anyone would want to print on $3 to $5 piece of high quality paper with something other than the best inks to save 50 cents.  If your going cost cutting all the way and using cheap paper, cheap ink because you can't sell the prints for enough to justify it, maybe.  But the cost of making a print is normally pretty small if you are selling your own work, and your putting your reputation as an artist on the line.

+1 The overall saving is not worth bothering about when considering the selling price .

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enduser
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 05:21:53 PM »
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We use cartridges fom Inkjetcarts and have done so for some time.  There's no color difference we can see from the original Canon inks.  The amount saved on purchase easily pays for our ocasional printhead replacements, so for us it's like using Canon inks and never ever having to pay for new heads - really helps the bottom line.

As for the argument about ink formula confidentiality, well so is the formulation of BP engine oil.  You'd still be happy using Shell though.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 05:39:05 PM »
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As for the argument about ink formula confidentiality, well so is the formulation of BP engine oil.  You'd still be happy using Shell though.

That analogy is inapplicable. Motor vehicle fuels must be made to certain specifications regulated by governments and industry, and whatever bells and whistles they advertise about them for marketing purposes, the bottom line is that they must adhere to regulations and industry standards and can't impair the safety and reliability of operating the engines. Printer ink isn't subject to any such regimen. I'll stick with products whose longevity has been rigorously tested, whose performance characteristics meet well-tested standards by respected industry practitioners and that are backed by a manufacturer I know something about and to which I have recourse now and five years from now. OP was looking for guidance. That's mine, FWIW. After all, I have not accumulated any experience with the set-up he first explained and for reasons I stated I wouldn't intend to. Of course, readers can treat that advice as they see fit. I'm done.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
irvweiner
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 11:03:59 PM »
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Mark Segal: " I'll stick with products whose longevity has been rigorously tested, whose performance characteristics meet well-tested standards by respected industry practitioners and that are backed by a manufacturer I know something about and to which I have recourse now and five years from now."

Will you post the references to these 'well tested standards'?

Will you post the the results of these products whose longevity has been rigorously tested? And the resultant  ink performance data?

Will you post the names of these 'respected industry practitioners'?

And what recourse do you expect in 5 years from now?

I find it rather distressing to see aggressive, intimidating responses hurled at individuals requesting aid about inks. When the per cc/ml price of the ink in your cart costs more than 2X that of Human Blood something is wrong!  Inks have been created over 2K+ years ago, long before the Internet.
I have been assisting voluntarily many who have posted similar ink questions, my response is based upon the due diligence I and others (names on request) have exercised by actually using and sharing info about 'good' inks--not anecdotal commentary.
For non-pros: hobbyists, student and families the greatest deterrent was fear. Fear that their warranty would be voided and/or the printer be damaged or destroyed--And yes, your manufacturers did issue warranty threats until the US and EU told them that is illegal. Did that stop'em? No, printers were often refused repair or the repair charges were excessive.


Regards irv weiner
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 09:38:54 AM »
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Hi Irv, OK - first please note I'm not trying to scare any one from any thing. It's no skin off my nose who prints with whatever fluid they want to run through their printers. I only raised considerations about things to be mindful of. Up to readers to do their own research and make up their own minds. Now, on the questions you raised: speaking for my own ways of developing confidence - if I were to see test results published on Wilhelm-Imaging Research or Ardenburg confirming adequate longevity for these products on the papers I use, that would satisfy me on the longevity question. When it comes to performance (colour gamut etc), we assess that through the profiles we create. You create, or have created for you, printer profiles using your ink and paper combinations, and those profiles can be measured either in the profiling software itself or in applications such as ColorThink Pro. I would like to see comparisons of profile measurements for the same papers, comparing OEM with 3rd party inks, and done by respected professionals who know this business and technology well - you should know who I mean, but if you need examples, folks such Andrew Rodney, Scott Martin and their likes. As for other respected industry practitioners - well the multitudes of professional photographers selling high end photographic work and who would only use inksets and papers that have been properly tested as mentioned above. All I can do is recommend considerations to be aware of. Having done so, this ends my participation in the discussion of this matter.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
KeithR
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2012, 10:50:35 AM »
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As to how the inks perform - they may look fine on paper, but what about their longevity? Have they been independently tested for degradation and fade-resistance by reliable, expert third parties?
If you consider Aarenburg a reliable independent tester then Jon Cone's inks have been undergoing tests in Aardenburg testing for some time now. His B&W inksets have been around for years and are considered the benchmark by which other inks are judged. Jon puts out a very high quality product and has for years.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2012, 11:02:30 AM »
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Yes I agree.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Peter McLennan
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2012, 02:28:31 PM »
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There are plenty of users of third party inks, the question would be: how many them are selling prints and how many instead have walls covered with their own work?
Brian A

A critical point, Brian.  For those of us who print for pleasure and not for sale, the price of ink is important.  I've sidestepped that issue for many years using third party inks and various CIS systems with constantly satisfying results. I've experience zero ink-related issues on any of the half dozen or so printers I've used over this time.

Ink prices become even more important when large prints are made. A friend recently decorated her new house with a half dozen 40" canvas prints, all made on Lexjet Sunset Matte, printed with MIS Associates inks and stretched on frames of my own construction.  Image quality is superb.  Both she and I are extremely pleased with the results.  They were a gift.

Regarding longevity, my walls are adorned with many prints made on various media with third party inks, some well over a decade old.  Many of these prints experience periods of direct sunlight, some are canvas, some are behind glass.  I see no changes in any of the prints, unlike some very expensive Cibachrome prints, which faded to unusability in a few years.

Mark, your diligence in cost accounting for print making is exemplary and long-standing.  I suggest you weigh both a new maintenance tank and a full one.  You might be surprised at how much ink your printer is pouring down the drain.  I know I was.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2012, 03:37:42 PM »
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Good points Peter, and interesting data. Yes, the maintenance tank I just replaced was not light. I didn't bother weighing them but when the new one is full that could be an interesting thing to do if I knew the specific gravity of the ink in order to convert from weight to volume.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Peter McLennan
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2012, 09:48:02 PM »
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A forensic investigation of ink jet ink by Wired Magazine declared inkjet ink to be 95% water. 
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2012, 10:19:44 PM »
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Kidding? How credible? Can you share access to that article? Would be fun to see.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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