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Author Topic: Difference p40+ and p45+?  (Read 2571 times)
Emilmedia
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« on: November 19, 2012, 03:55:15 PM »
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The p45+ is an order model right, but more expensive. Whats the difference?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 03:58:23 PM by Emilmedia » Logged

DanielStone
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 07:47:22 PM »
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check it out from the MFG here:

http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/P-Series/P-Specifications.aspx

If you're planning to use it on a tech-cam w/ movements, (EDIT: I'd) get the P45+, since it doesn't have micro-lenses(EDIT:like some backs do, such as the P30+, I was confusing the P30+ with its micro-lensed chip with the P40+'s non-lensed sensor) and is a wonderful DB, save the crappy ass screen on the back...

-Dan
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 11:21:35 PM by DanielStone » Logged
gazwas
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 08:05:44 PM »
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P45 has a larger Kodak sensor and is pretty unique by the fact it can do upto 1hr exposures. The P40 uses a newer Dalsa sensor.

The P40 is really nice back on a tech camera and IMO better than a P45 as it has less colour shift. If you don't need long exposures then the P40 is a great option. Despite what the last poster said both P40 and P45 don't have microlenses to limit tech camera use.

Both offer amazing IQ.
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 05:19:54 PM »
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Here is how I understand the differences:

The P40+ and the new IQ140 have the same sensor, only the IQ features the newer screen, and newer interface of the IQ backs.  There is a wealth of other things that the IQ gives you but I will leave that to the salesmen that travel this site.   Crop factor is 1:3.  The P40+ does offer sensor Plus which is a great feature IMO.  Resolution is 40mp.   The P40+ unfortunately shares the older LCD of the P45+ family.   Sensor is by Dalsa and is CCD

P45+ dates back to 2008, older Kodak CCD and is 39mp and has a 1:1 crop.  (Note it's not full frame).  No sensor plus and top iso of 800.  IMO 800 is very useable with the latest firmware.  However you may need to work with a good dealer, examples Digital Transitions(NY) or Capture Integration(GA) to make sure you have a P45+ capable of running the latest firmware.  (you also have to have this firmware to get the longer exposures).    I shot with the P45+ for almost 3.5 years and an very familiar with it.  P45+ also has the older style LCD which is very hard to use in the field and takes a lot of battery to work it. 

I used my P45+ briefly on a tech camera and really like the results, getting good shifts up to and past 20mm with no problems on the Schneider 43mm.  and 12mm on the Schneider 35mm.  However working with a tech camera and determining focus on the older style LCD's is a great pain and thus the new Credo or IQ back is a definite plus for tech cameras.  The P40+ would also do great in this environment.

The P45+ can produce an amazingly clean file up to 1 hour in length but after I started working with it I quickly moved back to 35mm for this style of work.  Feel free to PM me if you have any questions on reasons. 

IMO the IQ and DR of the Dalsa chips is much better and I greatly prefer the look of the Dalsa files.  I never liked the highlight capabilities of the P45+, and most of my exposures tended to be bracketed.  The newer Dalsa chipped backs have a much great range, per single exposure from what I have found in my work. 

Don't forget the Credo version of the IQ140, Leaf credo 40.  It has a few less features than the IQ's but is priced a bit lower. 

Paul
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 06:03:55 PM »
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Any "summary" is going to gloss over some details but here is a quick summary:

P45+
- max long exposure = 1 hour
- Kodak color rendering
- larger sensor (1.1 crop from 645 frame)
- slower frame-to-frame shooting (around 40 frames per minute)

P40+
- max long exposure = 1 minute
- Dalsa color rendering and tonal smoothness
- Bit more dynamic range
- zero latency mode allows for use on tech camera without wakeup
- smaller sensor (1.3 crop from 645 frame)
- faster frame-to-frame shooting (around frames per minute)
- allows setting of custom functions of DF body (if using DF)
- has built in virtual-horizon
- allows rating images in the back
- has sensor+ mode which allows higher ISO shooting at lower resolutions (up to ISO3200 at 10mp)

Both start at ISO50 and work fine with a tech camera (neither has any issue regarding microlenses). I really don't think the release date of the back should be a factor in the purchase - only how it performs.

The P45+ still demands a high price because it is the best back in the world when it comes to capturing long exposures. They've just recently ran out of their inventory of sensors to make new ones, so there will not be any more made. We have a few on our shelf and I don't expect them to last.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 06:10:00 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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tjv
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 12:23:47 AM »
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Doug,
Good summary, thanks. If Phase has run out of their inventory of sensors for the P45+, how does that affect future sensor replacement / repairs? How long can they guarantee replacement? I've been thinking long and hard between the P45+ and P40+ as well, not to mention the IQ140, but the P45+ long exposures and slightly larger sensor has me thinking it might be the best option. I'd only be using on a tech camera.
Thanks,
TJV
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Emilmedia
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 02:15:58 AM »
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So this would be the chip in the h3dII-39? I'm guessing for me shooting portraits and commercial shots this would be pretty much exactly the same as buying a h3dII-39 since i dont need the long exposures?
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yaya
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 03:15:08 AM »
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So this would be the chip in the h3dII-39? I'm guessing for me shooting portraits and commercial shots this would be pretty much exactly the same as buying a h3dII-39 since i dont need the long exposures?

Same sensor
Different IR filter
Different electronics and processors
Different software, workflow and algorithms

So not "pretty much exactly the same"...
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 03:50:55 AM »
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So this would be the chip in the h3dII-39? I'm guessing for me shooting portraits and commercial shots this would be pretty much exactly the same as buying a h3dII-39 since i dont need the long exposures?

As Yair says, same sensor but Phase and Hasselblad files look very different IMO and is all down to the electronics, processing, software and profiles used.

See if you can visit a dealer and shoot a file off each and you will see a difference.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 08:32:44 AM »
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So this would be the chip in the h3dII-39? I'm guessing for me shooting portraits and commercial shots this would be pretty much exactly the same as buying a h3dII-39 since i dont need the long exposures?

The only component they share is the sensor.

If I give two chef's the same piece of steak, but let them pick the accompanying ingredients, manner of preparation, and presentation then I don't expect to eat the same meal.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 08:40:49 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 01:02:29 PM »
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Good summary, thanks. If Phase has run out of their inventory of sensors for the P45+, how does that affect future sensor replacement / repairs? How long can they guarantee replacement? I've been thinking long and hard between the P45+ and P40+ as well, not to mention the IQ140, but the P45+ long exposures and slightly larger sensor has me thinking it might be the best option. I'd only be using on a tech camera.

Sales inventory and service inventory are kept entirely separate. Sensor replacements are exceedingly rare (I can only think of one case in five years that I've been involved in) but not impossible. More to the point this and all other repairs are accounted for when maintaing service inventory; Phase One is prepared to service the P45+ for many years to come. As a point of reference the H series (H20/H25) was just End-of-Life'd on Jan 1 after being introduced in 2001. And the service department is still happy to do many kinds of repairs on an H20/H25; they just can't guarantee they will be able to do any repair. There are also applicable laws in each country regarding how long an item must be serviced after being sold new which the P45+ was until the end of this year.

If I were making the decision between the 45+ and 40+ this would be very far down on my list of reasons to pick one or the other.

On a tech camera I don't see the larger sensor as a big advantage unless you want to go very wide. You can use our Focal Length Visualizer to see how "wide" any particular length lens will go for each back: www.digitaltransitions.com/visualizer/visualizer.html

If you need wider than a 23/24mm on a P40+ then it's critical you get a 45+. If not, then you would simply buy e.g. a 24/47/90 with a P40+ instead of a 35/60/120 with a P45+ and you end up in the same place. Sensor size is more important, IMO, when talking about a medium format body in which you are using the viewfinder - the optical crop can but a bit of a damper on the viewfinder experience. OR when talking about wanting very very shallow DOF where a larger sensor has a distinct edge for any given lens.
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 12:13:39 PM »
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Any "summary" is going to gloss over some details but here is a quick summary:

P45+
- max long exposure = 1 hour
- Kodak color rendering
- larger sensor (1.1 crop from 645 frame)
- slower frame-to-frame shooting (around 40 frames per minute)

P40+
- max long exposure = 1 minute
- Dalsa color rendering and tonal smoothness
- Bit more dynamic range
- zero latency mode allows for use on tech camera without wakeup
- smaller sensor (1.3 crop from 645 frame)
- faster frame-to-frame shooting (around frames per minute)
- allows setting of custom functions of DF body (if using DF)
- has built in virtual-horizon
- allows rating images in the back
- has sensor+ mode which allows higher ISO shooting at lower resolutions (up to ISO3200 at 10mp)

Both start at ISO50 and work fine with a tech camera (neither has any issue regarding microlenses). I really don't think the release date of the back should be a factor in the purchase - only how it performs.

The P45+ still demands a high price because it is the best back in the world when it comes to capturing long exposures. They've just recently ran out of their inventory of sensors to make new ones, so there will not be any more made. We have a few on our shelf and I don't expect them to last.


P45+
- max long exposure = 1 hour
- Kodak color rendering
- larger sensor (1.1 crop from 645 frame)
- slower frame-to-frame shooting (around 40 frames per minute)

P40+
- max long exposure = 1 minute  Not as clean as the p45+ when both compared same long exposure speeds.
- Dalsa color rendering and tonal smoothness Really very minor differences here "Dalsa tonal smoothness" or Dalsa/kodak color.....


- Bit more dynamic range Phase one states that they both have 12f stops of dynamic range
- zero latency mode allows for use on tech camera without wakeup Chews through batteries like nuts in this mode.
- smaller sensor (1.3 crop from 645 frame) actually it's a 1.3 crop from the usable 645 film frame which is 56 x 42 mm. P40 is 44x33mm, barely medium format.
- faster frame-to-frame shooting (around frames per minute)
- allows setting of custom functions of DF body (if using DF) No big deal as the screen on the back is small and all these functions can be set on the camera anyway.
- has built in virtual-horizon small screen however makes it quite limiting
- allows rating images in the back Files can be rotated, not the sensor. It's better to rotate the camera because the screen is so small that a rotated file will display so damn small.
- has sensor+ mode which allows higher ISO shooting at lower resolutions (up to ISO3200 at 10mp) Might as well shoot with a 35mm DSLR... results at such ISO will be far better and bigger files, especially if you factor in MF low light focusing limitations.

IMO the larger sensor is a much better choice.
Emil already has a high res 24x36mm sensor. The look optical look of a crop sensor on MF lenses will not be as nice as the same lenses on an almost FF 645 sensor.
I really see no point for a 44x33 sensor as an additional camera for a high end 35mm DSLR user.

Just the optical resolution loss from cropping the lens. A lens resolves x line pairs per millimeter. Crop away those milimeters and you are throwing away part of the lens resolution, not to mention better bokeh etc due to slightly lower enlargement of the projected image.

MF marketing keeps on going on about ... big sensor advantage, but then they suggest that a 44x33 sensor is just fine Huh

Another important thing to note is that the Phase One DF has only one viewfinder option that is designed for full frame.
Any crop sensor will need a mask for the viewfinder and the resulting image viewed in the viewfinder is going to be small and harder to focus on and view the subject. Hasselblad on the other hand has interchangable viewfinders. There are two Hasselblad H prisms. One for cropped sensors and one for larger sensors. Each optimized for the sensor size.



« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 04:28:57 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 12:28:29 PM »
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Same sensor
Different IR filter
Different electronics and processors
Different software, workflow and algorithms

So not "pretty much exactly the same"...

Once the image is published... I think it would be same to say... pretty much the same.
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studio347
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2012, 07:42:24 PM »
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It's a difficult choice. I used P45+ and P65+ which has the same (but larger) sensor as P40+. If very long exposure is not important, I think P65 is a bit better than P45 in image quality. Bigger resolution of P65, can be very helpful too sometimes, which can allow some serious cropping. With the combined benefit of a bit better dynamic range and bigger file size, P65 is better for me than P45. I rarely shoot with very long exposure. Zero latency of P40 & P65, is not so important since when using the function, the back can be warm very soon and resulting noisy images. I rarely use the function. But it's good to have. If long exposure is not important, I guess that P40 is a slightly better choice than P45 for the image quality since P40 seems to have a bit better dynamic range and a bit smoother color, just feeling and no-scientific judgement. If the longer exposure is important, P45 is a better choice since the difference in image quality is not that big. In theory, P40 with a bit higher resolution sensor, requires a bit more careful lens selection. I guess less forgiving.
But an important thing to remember is the fact that a good_interesting image done with P45, is not getting better or more interesting when using P40 or P65 or (even P80, I guess)... at least for the high-end editorial purpose, in many cases. Of course, in rare cases, such as Irving Penn's 8 by10 chrome still-life images in Vogue magazine(with very good printing), people might want to push all the way as much as possible. Just my limited personal opinion, but P45, P40, P65 all has a kind of similar quality with old 4 by 5 film quality(I didn't use P80 yet). For 8 by 10 film quality, we still need to wait ... for a while, better digital back and better printing... My bet is on around 10 or even 15 years for digital backs. But I don't think people are trying very hard for better printing technology for editorials or...


« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 10:06:30 AM by studio347 » Logged
Emilmedia
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 11:25:08 AM »
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And whats the diverse beten the 45 and the 45+?
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2012, 01:54:43 PM »
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Ah, when I talked about P45, P40 I meant P45+, P40+. Sorry for the confusion. As I remember, P45(non_plus) is an older version of P45 + and it doesn't have the very long exposure ability. The difference in image quality would be very small if there is any. But since P45 is quite old, if you decide to go with it, you need to be very careful to make sure that the used back is in a very good condition. If the long exposure is not important, used P45(non-plus) with a very low price tag and very good condition, would be a good choice too, I think.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 02:18:11 PM by studio347 » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2012, 03:50:42 PM »
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On the P45 vs P45+, hopefully Doug can answer this, I was thinking the older P45 only went to iso 400, but it might have done 800 also.  As for the P45+ it needs to be able to use the latest firmware from Phase One.  Trust me there were backs shipped that would not without being sent into Phase for a fix.  I owned one.  If you don't have the latest firmware loaded, I WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL, On trying to load it.  If you have a certain range of controller card, you will kill the back.  It will no longer function period and has be sent to Phase for a replacement or full reload of the back's firmware.  I was told that during the production there were a few different versions of the controller card on the P45+.  One type took the firmware upgrade with no problem, the others like mine did not. 

My point in this is simple.  If you purchase a used P45+ from a user that never tried an exposure longer than around 20 minutes, then they may have the card that won't take the firmware upgrade.  I don't believe there is anyway to tell outwardly, or by serial number.  When the P45+ first shipped, it would not get past around 30 minutes without a lot of noise.  Phase One made it clear that there would be a firmware upgrade to get the back to the 1 hour promised.  They delivered that, but the issue of the controller card came up as the firmware was rolled out.  My back was under warranty and thus fixed at no charge.  However now, I don't believe any used backs would still be under warranty.  Thus one more reason to purchase from a dealer as they can try out the back and make sure it will give you the full 1 hour.

There have been many great comments brought up, here are a few from my experience with the P45+.  Also let me qualify my position.  I owned and shot a P45+ for 3.5 years.  I now own a IQ160 which has the Dalsa chip, as does the P40+, P65+  etc.

1.  The backs are rated at the same DR, however I can tell you that the DR/results from a P45+ and P40+(Dalsa)  are greatly different.  I never felt that the P45+ handled highlights well at all.  It was so easy to blow them out.  I tended to bracket all my shots.   The first thing I noticed when   
     using the 160 was how much more even the exposure range was.  It's very easy to now use one exposure and either push shadows or pull down highlights with any real loss of detail or an increase of noise in the shadows.   The P45+ did not do this well at all.  I tended to meter for the
     highlights, take that exposure and bracket in for shadows.   I fully would expect the P40+ to have the same range as the 160.

2.  I feel that there is a considerable  difference in tonal rendering between the Kodak sensor and the Dalsa.  This gap has been closed just a bit with the release of Capture 7 in that it's now possible to get a better range from the P45+ files.  This only came about with Capture 7. 
    Still the P45+ handles shadow noise  totally different.  I tended to get a blotchy look when pulling shadows up as if the sensor/software really could not make out what was there. 

3.  As mentioned the P45+ is not a full frame sensor, its 1:1 and still needs the mask to really see what you are shooting.  If you use the P40+, it's 1:3, but either way you really need the mask installed in the DF if you are working around a critical image situation.  Many times I forgot this in
     the field and ended up cutting off a part of the shot I wanted thinking that my view in the DF was fully 100%.  Installation of the masks is a bit of a task since it's something you don't do every day.

4.  Don't forget that the 1 hour exposure is great but then after the exposure you are locked out for another hour as the corresponding dark frame is being written.  There is no way to use the back at all.  You need to make sure your battery will last the for the entire period of the dark frame or
     that shot is ruined.    The for any exposure @ 1" or longer any phase back takes a corresponding dark frame for the same exact time.  One other note, on the P45+ you can inadvertently hit the power button while the dark frame is being written, just something to consider.  I realize if you
     shoot tethered you should have power as long as your computer is on.  I was always in the field and only had the battery to work with. 

5.  With the latest firmware, the P45+ gives you very useable iso400 and 800 in a pinch, however there is a still a considerable loss of color/saturation in the iso800 files.  Some of this can be regained in Capture One.  With the Dalsa in the 160, I have found that iso 50 to 400 are very useable
    without sensor plus.  800 is OK.  Once you enable sensor plus 800 is very good and 1600 becomes useable.  I have never tried 3200. Your overall resolution drops by 3/4 but the file quality is much better.  Example the 60mp output from the 160 drops to 15mp.  The 40mp output from the
    P40+ drops to 10mp.   

Looking back, I have not had any regret in moving to the 160.  I thought at first I would miss the longer exposures, however I don't.  35mm digital can get me there on either Canon or Nikon.  The trade off of losing the exposures up to 1 hour, to having a overall cleaner image, with what I feel is much great tonal range, plus the ability to get up to 1600/3200 in a pinch was worth the move. 

If you have a dealer that you can work with (I know this has been mentioned before), it can make a big difference.  Service after the sale is key here as you really don't have a way of reaching Phase One directly (at least in the U.S.)  They have a service center but I don't know of any way to reach them without a dealer helping to setup the service call. 

Good luck on the decision.
Paul
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2012, 04:16:54 PM »
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On the P45 vs P45+, hopefully Doug can answer this, I was thinking the older P45 only went to iso 400, but it might have done 800 also.  As for the P45+ it needs to be able to use the latest firmware from Phase One.  Trust me there were backs shipped that would not without being sent into Phase for a fix.  I owned one.  If you don't have the latest firmware loaded, I WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL, On trying to load it.  If you have a certain range of controller card, you will kill the back.  It will no longer function period and has be sent to Phase for a replacement or full reload of the back's firmware.  I was told that during the production there were a few different versions of the controller card on the P45+.  One type took the firmware upgrade with no problem, the others like mine did not. 

My point in this is simple.  If you purchase a used P45+ from a user that never tried an exposure longer than around 20 minutes, then they may have the card that won't take the firmware upgrade.  I don't believe there is anyway to tell outwardly, or by serial number.  When the P45+ first shipped, it would not get past around 30 minutes without a lot of noise.  Phase One made it clear that there would be a firmware upgrade to get the back to the 1 hour promised.  They delivered that, but the issue of the controller card came up as the firmware was rolled out.  My back was under warranty and thus fixed at no charge.  However now, I don't believe any used backs would still be under warranty.  Thus one more reason to purchase from a dealer as they can try out the back and make sure it will give you the full 1 hour.

There have been many great comments brought up, here are a few from my experience with the P45+.  Also let me qualify my position.  I owned and shot a P45+ for 3.5 years.  I now own a IQ160 which has the Dalsa chip, as does the P40+, P65+  etc.

1.  The backs are rated at the same DR, however I can tell you that the DR/results from a P45+ and P40+(Dalsa)  are greatly different.  I never felt that the P45+ handled highlights well at all.  It was so easy to blow them out.  I tended to bracket all my shots.   The first thing I noticed when   
     using the 160 was how much more even the exposure range was.  It's very easy to now use one exposure and either push shadows or pull down highlights with any real loss of detail or an increase of noise in the shadows.   The P45+ did not do this well at all.  I tended to meter for the
     highlights, take that exposure and bracket in for shadows.   I fully would expect the P40+ to have the same range as the 160.

2.  I feel that there is a considerable  difference in tonal rendering between the Kodak sensor and the Dalsa.  This gap has been closed just a bit with the release of Capture 7 in that it's now possible to get a better range from the P45+ files.  This only came about with Capture 7. 
    Still the P45+ handles shadow noise  totally different.  I tended to get a blotchy look when pulling shadows up as if the sensor/software really could not make out what was there. 

3.  As mentioned the P45+ is not a full frame sensor, its 1:1 and still needs the mask to really see what you are shooting.  If you use the P40+, it's 1:3, but either way you really need the mask installed in the DF if you are working around a critical image situation.  Many times I forgot this in
     the field and ended up cutting off a part of the shot I wanted thinking that my view in the DF was fully 100%.  Installation of the masks is a bit of a task since it's something you don't do every day.

4.  Don't forget that the 1 hour exposure is great but then after the exposure you are locked out for another hour as the corresponding dark frame is being written.  There is no way to use the back at all.  You need to make sure your battery will last the for the entire period of the dark frame or
     that shot is ruined.    The for any exposure @ 1" or longer any phase back takes a corresponding dark frame for the same exact time.  One other note, on the P45+ you can inadvertently hit the power button while the dark frame is being written, just something to consider.  I realize if you
     shoot tethered you should have power as long as your computer is on.  I was always in the field and only had the battery to work with. 

5.  With the latest firmware, the P45+ gives you very useable iso400 and 800 in a pinch, however there is a still a considerable loss of color/saturation in the iso800 files.  Some of this can be regained in Capture One.  With the Dalsa in the 160, I have found that iso 50 to 400 are very useable
    without sensor plus.  800 is OK.  Once you enable sensor plus 800 is very good and 1600 becomes useable.  I have never tried 3200. Your overall resolution drops by 3/4 but the file quality is much better.  Example the 60mp output from the 160 drops to 15mp.  The 40mp output from the
    P40+ drops to 10mp.   

Looking back, I have not had any regret in moving to the 160.  I thought at first I would miss the longer exposures, however I don't.  35mm digital can get me there on either Canon or Nikon.  The trade off of losing the exposures up to 1 hour, to having a overall cleaner image, with what I feel is much great tonal range, plus the ability to get up to 1600/3200 in a pinch was worth the move. 

If you have a dealer that you can work with (I know this has been mentioned before), it can make a big difference.  Service after the sale is key here as you really don't have a way of reaching Phase One directly (at least in the U.S.)  They have a service center but I don't know of any way to reach them without a dealer helping to setup the service call. 

Good luck on the decision.
Paul

Well said Paul. To the OP please listen to REAL users that have owned these backs with some experience. Paul is exactly dead on the money. I owned almost every back Phase has made but not the P45 plus although I shot it more times than I can count on workshops. End of day I will take the Dalsa sensor over the older Kodak sensors any day of the week. I owned 3 versions of the Dalsa p40 , IQ 140 and IQ 160. To me they are worlds apart as I did own Kodaks P25 and P30 backs as well, although nice they are not remotely the same when it comes to the files to the Dalsa. The P45 has one thing going for it 1 hour exposures after that the Dalsa beats it on DR, ISO ,   color palette and a much more neutral color tone .plus I think a much smoother tonal range . I would call the P45 more crunchy looking. That's my own definition of it
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2012, 04:24:37 PM »
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Btw I shot all three of them on Tech cams with the Dalsa on Zero latency all the time. Yes it will eat batteries faster and will get warm but how this is spelled out here is a serious over exaggeration. Again listen to real users or folks like a tech guru like Doug who has been working with them for years. Best dealers in the US for phase are digital transitions and Capture integration. Use them

Don't forget the new Credos as well they use exactly the same sensors as Phase and are excellent backs. Yaya ( Yair ) is the Credo and Leaf representative in the UK. Great guy
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:27:54 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

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