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Author Topic: How does C1v7 switch from Catalog to Session for a particular job?  (Read 3890 times)
Phil Indeblanc
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« on: November 27, 2012, 04:19:33 PM »
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If I do a shoot in a Catalog and finish doing some processing/edits at one time....And then at a later time, if I access the files without the catalog, as in a Session view.....Will I see the little icons on the thumbnails/"Browser" showing which files I worked on?
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Paul Steunebrink
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 09:04:10 PM »
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No.

A catalog stores your adjustments in its database. A session stores adjustments in side car files in a sub folder of your images folder. There is no link or sync between them.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 12:23:46 AM »
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That sounds like a core issue.

Would the following version update be addressing this?
(I particularly ask those in the know, like the Phase One reps/team present here).

I hope no one recommends I write a support ticket. This is not a broken function. this is a core issue that needs everyone on in the C1 group to be on the same page to make aware and correct to move forward.

Or just give us users a version without all this, and more just the developer. I would still buy it.

Otherwise this is making a mess.  Software is supposed to make things functional and mostly smooth. If it carries out SUCH a huge function and there are some hurdles to learn, that is one thing, but to expect to change the way people start their work. Or how they approach working is just not realistic.
Let us simply pick a capture folder be the AMAZING developer you are with new engineering in RAW capabilites and how to manipulate the processing, keep things straight forward and simple as possible. but most importantly...... Leave the files and drives alone.  What a mess. 

On another note...I've had it crash on me in 2 occasions when in Session mode while browsing other folders in the "System Folder".  (That maybe something to report)
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 07:10:20 AM »
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Phil,

If you have shot into a Catalog, you would simply access the files by opening that Catalog.

Why would you do anything else?

David



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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 11:16:00 AM »
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What if you shoot in studio and want to migrate the files from  the studio computer/laptop to the main computer in the office?  Let's say you made some quick adjustments or added styles to the files in studio or even made ratings.   How does one incorporate these into the master catalog?  Does C1 read that data from the studio session or catalog and then add it to the master catalog on the main desktop?    If it does, then does it leave the old xml or boxcar files in the original folders?

Please advise what is the best practice workflow to use in studio - to main computer.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 12:52:29 PM »
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If you have shot into a Catalog, you would simply access the files by opening that Catalog. Why would you do anything else?

Because many photographers are not the type to wear ironed photo-vests with a cleaning brush and loop in a pocket.

Studios need flexible tools and software that accept interchangeability (hello! your hardware excels in this concept!).
If it doesn't adjust to the way multiple people work, then it will get pushed aside and loose market saturation(Hass).

I'm personally doing my best to accept and adjust to use C1v7, and in fact wanted to use Catalogs. Once I realized it is useless to my workflow, I need to get my work back on track with my adjustments without Catalogs.
I can confidently say that I will never use Catalogs in C1.
I don't want to look for a catalog in 10TB of drives(no matter how organized it maybe) for me to access my files.

these are a few reason on this particular instance....other than wondering why would anyone want a "closed out" system to begin with?

I believe in Phase One enough that I would be willing to invest in a C1 developing team to make an ultimate alternate version.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 01:46:47 PM »
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I don't want to look for a catalog in 10TB of drives(no matter how organized it maybe) for me to access my files.


I'm sorry Phil, you have completely lost me.

Why would you be 'looking' for your catalog?
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 02:38:57 PM »
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David,
Could you address my question?
Thanks,
Eric
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 02:56:47 PM »
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David,
Could you address my question?
Thanks,
Eric


Sure...

Is your office and studio computer networked together?
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 03:36:34 PM »
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No. Why? They are actually a city apart.

I'm really thinking Phase has not thought this out all the way yet. Cataloging IS a good idea, but it needs to work with the existing sessions workflow that C1 users have been doing for years now.  I would like to know how I can come back from the studio with a new set of images that has comments, ratings and some applied styles and get it to be incorporated into the catalog.   My feeling is that the catalog needs to be able to work with files and sidecars where they are and not suck them into some proprietary database.  Been there and done that with Aperture when it first came out.  That was terrible.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 06:07:30 PM »
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4 computer nodes access files. 2 for editing, 2 for manage sort and distribute versions.
Another computer with firewire connection to stands for DB capture.

All files go on servers organized by server and client/folders. They are also accessed via a DAM that manages the files on all systems.
So we have 1 catalog so far. 
Then due to LR advantages around version3.x and its faster workflow over ACraw. The Catalog feature being rather easy to adapt and see how it works. It visually allows you to step through the import of files in a "From-To where" step.
Also the interface is very friendly and logical mostly visually based, and meshes well with Adobe PShop.
It made sense to adapt the catalog by force.
  That's 2 catalogs! ( I actually make smaller catalogs either by client or by work type) (Using catalogs means using resources). So now we need to throw in ANOTHER catalog? Why is C1 making it almost a force to use either LR or C1? I don't think anyone wants to work with multiple catalogs. AND, I don't think users would give up LR adjustment options and easy interface. There goes lots of folks.

Sessions acts like a catalog on a smaller scale, no? Its been the Achilles heal since its inception. What is the reason behind having this in the first place? I never understood. Now one more layer. And you can't even opt out of it.

C1 Catalogs....So I gave it a go when I first got it, so I have files I worked on in Catalog mode, that I need in my FILES, not some closed proprietary system.  That's first MAJOR issue.
(FYI, I notice C1 crashes rather often when switching from folder to folder in the System Folders).

It looks like it HAS to launch with some Session already in mind, WHY?  I decide to work on which client I want. So rather than making a choice, I'm forced to have the Session name on the top left of the program. This is not an open workflow.
How confusing. what for?  Already when I capture I am forced to make a Session. Why again when I simply want to edit on another machine?

Another issue is the importance of backing up with Catalogs. As they work faster using an OS drive or a drive on the system...Often people working with large files and speed being important use SSD drives. So I do often have the OS drive periodically imaged, but having the Catalog disappear and rei-maging the drive with OS and apps, but without some latest entries made into the catalog makes it more of a mandate to backup all the time.  Another layer of unneeded complexity. So now those edits are in the catalog! Not in the files!!

It looks like you understood all my other comments, and I hope the above helps clear the one you asked about.  I want to simply look for my files in a folder structure, and work on the files much like the way c1 3.X was setup. Many great new welcome features in the years, no doubt! They are independent of the core method of handling the files. Which is the main problem.




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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 02:49:34 AM »
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No. Why? They are actually a city apart.

I'm really thinking Phase has not thought this out all the way yet. Cataloging IS a good idea, but it needs to work with the existing sessions workflow that C1 users have been doing for years now.  I would like to know how I can come back from the studio with a new set of images that has comments, ratings and some applied styles and get it to be incorporated into the catalog.   My feeling is that the catalog needs to be able to work with files and sidecars where they are and not suck them into some proprietary database.  Been there and done that with Aperture when it first came out.  That was terrible.

Hi Eric,

I only asked as you could easily share a catalog between two locations, writing the image to your studio machine or back in the office.  Use the Folders area in the Library tool to move images between the locations.

In your situation you could do two things.

1) Shoot to a Session on Location and import that into the catalog back in the office.  Only Caveat here is that you will only retain the folder structure of the Session if they are referenced files i.e. not copied Inside the Catalog file.  You would retain all your settings and ratings if you check the appropriate box in the import window.

2) Shoot to a catalog on location and merge this to the master catalog back in the office.  Caveat here is that this functionality is not possible!  But you can say that it has been requested and known about.

David
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 02:59:55 AM »
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4 computer nodes access files. 2 for editing, 2 for manage sort and distribute versions.
Another computer with firewire connection to stands for DB capture.

All files go on servers organized by server and client/folders. They are also accessed via a DAM that manages the files on all systems.
So we have 1 catalog so far. 
Then due to LR advantages around version3.x and its faster workflow over ACraw. The Catalog feature being rather easy to adapt and see how it works. It visually allows you to step through the import of files in a "From-To where" step.
Also the interface is very friendly and logical mostly visually based, and meshes well with Adobe PShop.
It made sense to adapt the catalog by force.
  That's 2 catalogs! ( I actually make smaller catalogs either by client or by work type) (Using catalogs means using resources). So now we need to throw in ANOTHER catalog? Why is C1 making it almost a force to use either LR or C1? I don't think anyone wants to work with multiple catalogs. AND, I don't think users would give up LR adjustment options and easy interface. There goes lots of folks.

Sessions acts like a catalog on a smaller scale, no? Its been the Achilles heal since its inception. What is the reason behind having this in the first place? I never understood. Now one more layer. And you can't even opt out of it.

C1 Catalogs....So I gave it a go when I first got it, so I have files I worked on in Catalog mode, that I need in my FILES, not some closed proprietary system.  That's first MAJOR issue.
(FYI, I notice C1 crashes rather often when switching from folder to folder in the System Folders).

It looks like it HAS to launch with some Session already in mind, WHY?  I decide to work on which client I want. So rather than making a choice, I'm forced to have the Session name on the top left of the program. This is not an open workflow.
How confusing. what for?  Already when I capture I am forced to make a Session. Why again when I simply want to edit on another machine?

Another issue is the importance of backing up with Catalogs. As they work faster using an OS drive or a drive on the system...Often people working with large files and speed being important use SSD drives. So I do often have the OS drive periodically imaged, but having the Catalog disappear and rei-maging the drive with OS and apps, but without some latest entries made into the catalog makes it more of a mandate to backup all the time.  Another layer of unneeded complexity. So now those edits are in the catalog! Not in the files!!

It looks like you understood all my other comments, and I hope the above helps clear the one you asked about.  I want to simply look for my files in a folder structure, and work on the files much like the way c1 3.X was setup. Many great new welcome features in the years, no doubt! They are independent of the core method of handling the files. Which is the main problem.


Sessions were put in place essentially for Studio shooters using Phase One equipment who shot on a job-job basis.  The Sessions wraps up everything you need from a shoot..

-Captures
-Selects
-Outputs
-...and custom folders / albums if you wish.

This neat container can be moved from storage to storage retaining everything.

Phil, you have to understand many users LOVE the sessions workflow.  Some do not, hence the addition of Catalogs in v7.

More on Sessions...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FcfE67Ln_4&feature=share&list=SPDMRz3ssFQH6HhCcWLh7xL0SapRxUNzs9

I don't agree with your comment about the C1 importer.  We also follow an Import From - Import To process with the option to leave the images where they are (Referenced) or copy them inside the Catalog file (Managed) or move them to a new location (Also referenced but useful for importing from memory cards).

What I think you are asking for is some kind of browser mode ignoring Sessions or Catalogs?  This is harder to implement for many reasons - reading large folders of images would be very slow as previews would have to be built on the fly, or we would need to add sidecar files - not desirable for many.

Equally you lose out on other Catalog benefits like search and filtering as you don't have a database in place to facilitate this.

Why don't you import your file structure into a Catalog and browse the folders in the Folders area of the Library tool?  Essentially you have a file browser then with Catalog features.

David
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 12:53:47 PM »
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Yes a browser mode!! Thats it! simple and transparent!
Why is it ACDSee can make a SUPER fast browser, (AND they have in the past few versions added a Raw developer). So without the Catalog complexity, or even Sessions as an option, it should be no speed issue. right?
It hasn't slowed things down. In fact their database or "catalog" is hardly something you deal with. So you simply use it as you would a Windows Explorer on steroids, and super fast. I don't know if they use a sidecar, but I thought all raws have sidecars.

If many Love Sessions(the way sessions is now is much like Catalog, you STILL make a Session before you jump in!), it can be an OPTION to use. But not forced.
As soon as a software takes control in the way I work, and that to me is Catalog and even Sessions, it is a major let down.

I think I just have to work pretty much the way you describe.  I have to plan to use the software, and shoot "around" it.  This throws a wrench and isolates the way many people work.
But I don't see C1 making any shift away from this.  Thats why I wish they would invest in the old 3.7 app and bring it up to snuff without all the extras. Just a browser with a developer. They can keep what they can, and do away with the Catalog and Sessions. Everyone is happy. C1 Pro v7, and a C1 Pro Shooter, or Pro Flex, or Pro Lite.

This is why I didn't want to use LR up until v3, as I saw the advantages....NOT OF THE Catalog features, just the developer and export features (text,watermark, sharp, etc automated). Has the cataloging made anything easier? No I am sure for many who have not thought about the way their images are structured on drives may love it, until it is corrupted, or they have an issue with it. But anyone with a good amount of content and those that give value to their images will have explored DAm, and (whats that book?) and figured a way to manage folders. It is the simplest, least resource dependent, and I think the safest and fastest way.

I do use Keywording, I would like to use it in my ACDSee app, but due to some metadata inconsistancy I also use LR.
Til now between IDImager, ACDSee, C1, LR, and even the OS, there seams to be no standard in the Rating (and likely other entries) to be recognized across the applications. I'm assuming ITPC and EXIF are the uniform standard and perhaps I have to make a Ratings of my own in one of the fields. But so inconvenient when browsing and making selects!
Search and filter I can do via dedicated DAM, so this is not a issue.
So now I need to have a THIRD METADATA info table to not see in other apps is just bonkers!

Thanks for putting things in perspective as I don't see C1 making such efforts to address what I mention above, so either I try and make my LR files just as good as C1, or deal with Sessions or Catalog redundancies in C1, along LR, along ACDSee.

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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 01:06:17 PM »
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Phil - ACDSee Pro 6 uses a Catalog Database as well.

The ACDSee Pro database stores image and media file information automatically when you browse your folders. This process is called cataloging. The database increases the speed with which you can browse your computer, and you can use the information stored in the database to sort, organize, search, and filter your images and media files. You can also backup, restore, and share database information.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 06:54:45 PM »
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Well there you have it!!! Why didn't C1 take this approach?
There is a world of difference in the way ACD and C1 use a catalog database. This is why they are the WORLD'S LEADING manager, period.

You launch ACDSee and all your files are there to browse and manage and edit and export and organize...Not one Session, no catalog to deal with if you don't want (transparent), and it supports just about EVERY image file EXCEPT IIQ (why? I don't know)

......ALL This WITHOUT ADDITIONAL STEPS, TITLES, FILES, LOCATIONS, or ANYTHING THAT THE USER NEEDS TO THINK ABOUT OR DO. And does much more in the manage side.

As we have it, C1v7 now is the slower browser vs ACDSee.

FYI:
This company has been in the image management business for well over a decade(since the mid 90's), and I've learned to respect that amount of knowledge from mostly a single application they make and rely on.
I have turned on MANY students to this application, and a number of fellow photographers. Why would you just follow LR's steps? I ask this openly, as there might be a reason. But if it just because you saw that being the direction, you lose! You fragmented yourself in a "US or "THEM" game. You could be on the highway out of the marketing traffic your dealing with now. OR, if I'm wrong, in the SAME possition, as the Cataloging isn't the selling point!

Here is more on ACDSee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACD_Systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACDSee

I feel like I should be paid for this amount of talk on the app ;-P

ACDSee didn't invent this viewing model. Its right there in all the OS's we use! Now implementing the database to be invisible and out of the way in the browser is were sw developers come in. As ACD does this all in the background.

A couple quotes that recognize the catalog or database approach ACDSee takes....

"ACDSee products are so popular in Asia that they are second only to Louis Vuitton in product piracy"
"customer markets include AEC (architecture, engineering and construction), insurance, manufacturing, aerospace, automotive, government, architecture/construction, education, gaming, technology, bio/health, and oil/gas/energy. Customers include General Motors, Caterpillar, Boeing, The New York City Fire Department, NASA, CNN, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. ACDSee software was used in the making of the movie, Titanic because the filmmakers recognized that only ACDSee could provide the illustration, editing and management tools required for their large scale, complicated development tasks and image management."


This is all regarding the MANAGING VIEWING and EDITING side of ACDSee. (Don't confuse with the Developer).... this and the people using computers and their familiarity of the OS and the way they work SHOULD be somewhat OBVIOUS! Why is this ignored? And why is this "world's most popular" app not able to support IIQ files? what a shame, or is it a sham? whats the issue?

David, out of the entire concept and points of what I am discussing, and trying to understand why this has been such a BRICK WALL of a problem....explain to me more, as you saying speed is the problem, and it just isn't so.

I would be willing to place $500 to start a pool of C1 sw developers to make a version of C1 based on an open browser concept , much like the 3.7 version.
I wonder what it would take to massage in the new developer, and all the new tools in exposure/Clarity/structure, etc? Also I like the Focus window. Maybe a real pole would reveal a number of things.
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 08:20:02 PM »
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- The Mac Version of C1 used the session concept. All adjustments and cache were kept in sidecar folders just like version 4-7.
- The pro market that C1 targets value the ability to move a project/job from one location to another without the need to export/sync the adjustments/cache of that project. If you do a browser concept with a central catalog of adjustments then such adjustments do not travel with the raws if you move the project/job.
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 09:04:23 PM »
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What you're saying is I think is that the target pro market likes to Capture with C1 and then likes to move the files to their editing system, right?


Lets say I'm doing a location shoot. I would shoot into the camera's card. If I'm in the studio, and tethered, I shoot into my servers or a shared drive that is likely on the network. Or some folks like to shoot and hotswap the drive into the editing computer (this is not an ideal method, and I think it is a RARE  method).
I hope I covered most senarios for the target market that value the Pro version, so....
Considering the above, I would like to know some numbers on this pro market that values this so much. Can we do a pole?
Lets say for instance someone has a bad card , a back without a card, or simply needs to tether on location, and is setup with a tech cart or a laptop.  We shoot while the digitech is showing me and client how the files are coming along....
...............So with what you said that if C1 didn't have Sessions or catalogs as v3.7, and I did a shoot to the capture computer/laptop/digi tech's system (into a Folder using C1v3.7). Then when wanting to get the files from the tech with some adjustments(possibly useful), he/she/hen couldn't get me the files/folders with the adjustments on a media and hand it to me?







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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2012, 12:44:25 AM »
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If I do a shoot in a Catalog and finish doing some processing/edits at one time....And then at a later time, if I access the files without the catalog, as in a Session view.....Will I see the little icons on the thumbnails/"Browser" showing which files I worked on?

This can be easily be accomplished by what I've been saying for the past weeks (since v7 was released): save the adjustments to xmp files (like in the sessions). For some reason, Phase things that, something that is so common sense (they do use that approach with sessions and you can do it very painfully with catalogs, one image at the time) it shouldn't be bothered with.

Since v4, Capture One workflow (speed and logic) has been going down. Yes, new, good features have been added, but overall, C1 is not a pleasure to work with as it used to be back in v3.x Somebody should remind them about KISS.
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2012, 11:54:56 AM »
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I don't understand it either.  Just loss for words. Why all this on the developer? Why following LR's forced market model? (they forced by either having them update and purchase Photoshop, or LR for half the price for full version. Most folks including myself got LR. It always has the newer dev engine. Even now. You can't upgrade the raw in CS5 unless you upgrade to CS6. No body cares right now about CS6, so for the new dev, you get LR. They lock it in with Photoshop.

C1 could have made Media Pro the Catalog robust app (since Bridge always crashes, I don't bother with it). Reworked a number of things that needed refinement, and some core issues in format compatibility and so forth. Hire a guy or two that were involved in making it. Look at other SUCCESSFUL implementations from all the top DAM's (I like ACDSee) and apply the creme! You would gain much more C1 users.

Obviously someone thought that having a DAM and a seperate DEV was the direction when they purchased MediaPro from Microsoft...Good Idea!...Now who's responsible for dumping that?

Maybe they need Undercover Boss to visit Phase and untangle the mess in sw. As you and I and others have said(countless many that don't bother to voice and just move on to something else).
Since the separation of v3.7 , its just been painful....Obviously in the raw dev side of things you get the great results, with some great features, but I do my best to avoid it. Why try and force, just be visually simple and treat files openly. Not in a closed system.
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