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Author Topic: Phase One Schneider lenses  (Read 3553 times)
FredBGG
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« on: November 28, 2012, 12:12:54 AM »
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Recently discussing lenses with a couple of other photographers the German glass discussion came up.
One mentioned how he prefers the German glass such as Phase One Schneider over Japanese Glass.
I pointed out that the Phase One lenses have made in Japan and they are also made under the Mamiya Sekor name.

http://chubandigital.jp/download/Campaign2012_11.pdf



There is this video on the Phase One website:

With this description:
"The making of LS lenses
Phase One and Schneider Kreuznach work closely to provide high quality lenses to the demanding
professional medium format photographers. Go behind the scenes and see how the leaf shutter lenses are made"

http://youtu.be/SESZUZKQvAE

No mention of Japan in the video...

In the video they mention Schneider buys the best glass. Hmmm who do they buy from... is their supplier German?

The Mamiya branded LS lenses are also less expensive than the Schneider/Phase One branded lenses.

In this Phase One video Adrian Weinbrecht goes on about the differences between "German glass" and Mamiya lenses.
http://youtu.be/SESZUZKQvAE


So where's the glass from?
Why are Mamiya LS lenses less expensive?
Lenses are labeled  Lens Made In Japan...... so isn't that where they are made?


« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 07:43:05 AM by Chris Sanderson » Logged
HarperPhotos
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 02:18:09 AM »
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Hello,

This is what is written on the B&H website.

The Mamiya Sekor 80mm f/2.8 LS D Lens is a leaf shutter, normal digital lens with a 35mm equivalent focal length of 50mm. This lens is designed by Schneider-Kreuznach and manufactured by Mamiya specifically for the 645DF camera. With 645DF series cameras, you can be assured that this lens will deliver superior high-resolution images that are required for commercial, product, portraiture, fine art and a wide variety of other professional applications.

With top flash sync speeds of up to 1/1600 second (depending upon digital back), this 80mm, like the other LS series lenses, allows for effective use of professional strobe equipment in even the brightest of conditions. The f/2.8 maximum aperture makes this lens also ideal for existing light photography.

Cheers

Simon
 

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kdphotography
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 09:50:25 AM »
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OMG!!  Another conspiracy theory!  We've been had!  Another misleading video!    Roll Eyes

From someone who actually owns and uses Phase, Mamiya, Schneider, and Rodenstock lenses on a Phase One MFDB----I really don't care where the lenses are made.  My personal and professional experience is that they work.  They work very well.  Now if child labor were involved and they slapped on a Nike or Walmart label, maybe we can talk conspiracy theory....  Shocked
I guess if it really really bothers you, you could refuse to buy or use those offending lenses.  Oh, wait, never mind...   Tongue

 Roll Eyes

So much negative energy here.  Imagine the possibilities of moving forward in life with a simple smile.  Move on.   Smiley
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 10:50:02 AM »
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I agree with KD, they work, they are great, move on. We all know they are made by Mamiya in Japan, its no secret. If you don't want to pay the extra for a PhaseOne branded one, buy the Mamiya (***SPOILER*** they work the same)
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georgl
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 11:04:26 AM »
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Only the high-end designs are made in Germany, it's simply a way for these manufacturers (same as Zeiss or Leica) to earn additional money by licensing their name for 3rd party products. No investments in design (although, some designs are SK-originated) or manufacturing needed. If this is actually a good idea? Well, if the price/performance-ratio is okay and certain standards are met (I guess the actual manufacturers here are capable of decent quality) I can personally live with it. But you shouldn't make the mistake to expect superior quality because of a brand. Actual design, material, manufacturing and testing standards make the difference.
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henrikfoto
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 11:04:57 AM »
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I think the LS lenses are good, but it's not a secret that they are overpriced.
Much because of the Schneider name they use. And they are not much better than
the non-Schneider lenses.

Thats just the way the makets work today. Not only in photography,
but more or less everywhere. If your brand is not respected enough,
rent anothers brand to sell "the same shit"..


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EricWHiss
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 11:06:50 AM »
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Hey Fred,
How's that home made 680 to D800 franken tilt shift coming along.  You wrote earlier you'd share some photos of it.   That would be much more interesting than another rehash.
Eric

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jsiva
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 11:32:47 AM »
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I have a bunch of LS lenses and always thought they were great and made in Germany.  However, one day, one of the "made in Germany" labels peeled off, and holy cow, it says made in N.Korea by Army veterans. I guess they still work, so I will keep them for now -- but am talking to Schneider about getting some spare "made in Germany" stickers.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 11:36:52 AM »
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Hi,

I'm not involved as I shoot neither Mamiya nor Schneider, but I can mention some thoughts about the issue anyway.

To begin with, I don't think lenses care about where they are made, nor do they care about where the glass they use is made.

Lenses care about the way they were designed and assembled and the way they are coated.

A bit related, but I tried to check out some of my lenses for Zeissness. I have set up a session with 5 different lenses around 70 mm on a Sony Alpha 77 SLT (24 MP APS-C camera).

The lenses were:

Minolta 80-200/2.8 APO
Sony 28-70/2.8 ZA (having Zeiss label, T* coating and Zeiss serial number and with a QC certificate signed by a Zeiss employee)
Sony 16-80/3.5-4.5ZA (having Zeiss label, T* coating and Zeiss serial number and with a QC certificate signed by a Zeiss employee)
Sony 70-300/3.5-4.5G
Sony 70-400/4.0-5.6G

Test subject was a pelargon and a small USAF test target. Also included was a slanted edge and a mini color checker. As far as I can recall f/5.6 was used for all and focus was in live view at highest magnification.

Once the five images were matched so white balance was set on the second brightest gray CC patch and exposure adjusted I was not able to tell the five images apart at actual pixels. I have not done MTF evaluation on the slanted edges yet.

This test was done near to the optical axis, so corner performance was not tested. But I wouldn't say that special Zeiss characteritics were obvious to me.


Best regards
Erik


 


Recently discussing lenses with a couple of other photographers the German glass discussion came up.
One mentioned how he prefers the German glass such as Phase One Schneider over Japanese Glass.
I pointed out that the Phase One lenses have made in Japan and they are also made under the Mamiya Sekor name.

http://chubandigital.jp/download/Campaign2012_11.pdf



There is this video on the Phase One website:

With this description:
"The making of LS lenses
Phase One and Schneider Kreuznach work closely to provide high quality lenses to the demanding
professional medium format photographers. Go behind the scenes and see how the leaf shutter lenses are made"

http://youtu.be/SESZUZKQvAE

No mention of Japan in the video...

In the video they mention Schneider buys the best glass. Hmmm who do they buy from... is their supplier German?

The Mamiya branded LS lenses are also less expensive than the Schneider/Phase One branded lenses.

In this Phase One video Adrian Weinbrecht goes on about the differences between "German glass" and Mamiya lenses.
http://youtu.be/SESZUZKQvAE


So where's the glass from?
Why are Mamiya LS lenses less expensive?
Lenses are labeled  Lens Made In Japan...... so isn't that where they are made?



« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 01:14:46 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 11:42:31 AM »
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From someone who actually owns and uses Phase, Mamiya, Schneider, and Rodenstock lenses on a Phase One MFDB----I really don't care where the lenses are made.  My personal and professional experience is that they work.  They work very well.  

First of all as many know I owned Phase and Mamiya.

Second lets look at an example of someone else that owned a Phase One "Schneider" LS lens. A fellow called Heiko.
He had a bad lens and made a comment about it being made on Japan.

He was attacked on the Phase one forum by Drew of Phase One and accused of making inaccurate comments about where the lenses
were made.

Quote
HEIKO121 wrote:
You claim that the leaf shutter will work over 100000 actuations and do not repair mine after only 4000?
kind of ridiculous isn´t it? And regarding to my new Nikon, there is a much bigger variety of lenses that you can carry with you and they do not cost a fortune. On top they do not cost fortunes for repairing them.
And they do not sell me "Schneider" lenses made in Japan.

Quote
Heiko,
Again, I apologize if there was a communication issue in regard to the repair policy of our hardware. If the 1 Year OR 100,000 Shutter Actuations (as outlined in the link above) was not clear at the time of your purchase then I can only now apologize and as you have sold your products I cannot offer anything further. As your lens was well over the 1 year term of the warranty, there was no coverage for your repair at the time of service but any cost certainly could have been evaluated after the repair was performed if you found it unsatisfactory. Again, as the equipment has been sold I cannot offer any further assistance in this regard.
As there seem to be some discrepancies listed in the forum regarding the cost of our repairs, services provide by Phase One, the shutter count you believe the lens to have had and the location of our hardware production I would kindly ask that you refrain from further posts on our forum as they do not seem to lend themselves to a constructive discussion.

I am again sorry if there was any confusion or misinformation regarding all the aspects listed above. I wish you luck with your Nikon system.
Kind Regards,
Drew
Phase One

I find it both sad and rather funny that this Drew fellow apologizes for misinformation while including some fresh misinformation in the very same post.
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 11:47:08 AM »
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Last Comment: Not everyone is in the PR department and fact checks everything and the confers with the legal department before posting on the internet.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 11:59:25 AM »
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I agree with KD, they work, they are great, move on.

Actually they don't work that great.... many people have issues with leaf shutters and have had issues regarding service:

Quote from: NN249824UL
Can anybody tell me what is the sign that I need to change the lens or send it to be repaired? the shutter stopped working today and I'm really frostraited about it!
Thanks!


http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11964&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11088&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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FredBGG
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 12:08:36 PM »
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Last Comment: Not everyone is in the PR department and fact checks everything and the confers with the legal department before posting on the internet.

So you think it's OK to accuse a customer with a broken product of theirs of lying when he says the lens was Made in Japan.

Maybe they should put more effort into making the LS shutter more reliable.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 12:13:04 PM »
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Hey Fred,
How's that home made 680 to D800 franken tilt shift coming along.  You wrote earlier you'd share some photos of it.   That would be much more interesting than another rehash.
Eric



It's become a wee bit more than home made. I will be going to a friends machine shot to make a part... should be fun... he makes parts for JPL and worked on the Mars rovers.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 12:17:49 PM »
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I'm also working on a compact hack to make an electronic finder and focus assist for my 8x10.
We are trying to use a compact sony as an electronic viewfinder for my 8x10 and hacking the software to extract focus distance values.

The compact will sit ontop of the 8x10 lens. The monitor will be a Samsung Note and the app will give the assistant/photographer
bellows extension values. This is for a portrait project of mine using paper negatives. The face recognition in the compact will make things work nicely.
I'm also designing the app to adjust paralax based on the focus so as to give accurate framing.

I may be handing this off to Fuji as they have shown some interest in it.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 12:21:44 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Alan W George
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2012, 12:37:51 PM »
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Fred,

A little bored today?  It seems your hobby is sturing up senseless acrimony.  Perhaps you should try a different hobby, like photography.  Might I suggest you put down the keyboard and go out and take some pictures:)

Yours truly...
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Sheldon N
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2012, 12:50:37 PM »
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+1

I am getting tired of the endless troll posting as well.
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sgilbert
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2012, 01:11:21 PM »
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Tired of Fred;  how can that be?

Keep up the good work, Fred.  Inquiring minds want to know all this good stuff. 

Go Fuji.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2012, 01:20:19 PM »
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Some find the discussion worth discussing. Personally I do.
I also would like to add that I have often spoken highly of Mamiya lenses.

I think that many would agree with me that the all Mamiya made 150mm 2.8 IF is the finest
MF SLR lens ever made.

I also find that there is too much hype around the german glass myth.

I think the fine Japanese craftsmen deserve more credit than the get.

Phase One certainly left them out of their how they are made video.... Wink

Oh and buy the way my family is from Stuttgart in Germany
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 01:24:19 PM by FredBGG » Logged
EricWHiss
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2012, 01:52:17 PM »
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Some find the discussion worth discussing. Personally I do.
I also would like to add that I have often spoken highly of Mamiya lenses


Not me, especially since this topic has been hashed through the forums multiple times in the past.  You should search before you post.

And btw - forget the 150, the rollei schneider 90mm apo macro is the best MF lens ever.   

Here's what I do want to discuss:

Fred, I saw an AE lupe style finder for the 680.  Can you tell me if that works with the 680 III or just the first two versions?
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