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Author Topic: Why was the topic closed about the origine of Phase One Shneider lenses ?  (Read 3231 times)
julienlanoo
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« on: November 29, 2012, 09:00:13 AM »
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I found it interesting...
As i personally remarked a hudge difference between LS shneiders and Technical shneiders at same price..

I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..? 

And if the Mamiya LS are the same as the Shneider LS lenses only cheaper, isn't that a good thing to know ?..
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 09:21:06 AM »
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- List price of Mamiya branded LS and Schneider branded LS lenses (same lens, different distro channels) are the same. Any discrepancy in price is due to the box movers whose online prices are governed by algorithm and database managers not product specialists who actually keep track of things like pricing changes (of which there was one on those lenses). Generally BH waits until someone at the manufacturer notices the MAP violation to change the price they list at, and if any of their competitors have a lower price they have a robot program that finds that price and matches it.
- Look up the last hundred posts by the OP of that thread, and see if you can discern a pattern in his posts. Do you think he is providing useful criticism or just stirring the pot? I suppose it's subjective, but, I mean, I haven't seen such an obvious troll on this forum in at least a few years. He tries hard to mask it by occasionally saying something positive, so if you only tune in occasionally you could be forgiven for not noticing). It's like watching a highly biased "news" show that occasionally brings a "opposing viewpoint" analyst to create the appearance of balance.
- Tech camera lenses and SLR lenses are REALLY different markets/lenses. One is an AF lens with auto aperture, an electronic communication interface and designed around a mirror box and providing no movements. The other is a manual-only-everything lens designed without a mirror box as a consideration, and intended to allow (in most cases) movements like tilt/shift/swing. Tech camera lenses are usually lower in quantity-sales per lens (not always true, but usually). The performance and price of these two types of lenses will consequently be very separately measure/attained. The only thing they really share in common is a brand name.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:45:45 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 09:23:12 AM »
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I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..?  

110%. If your intention/motivation is to discuss in an open even-handed way the equipment you find performs well or performs poorly (or works for your needs or doesn't work for your needs) in order to better inform the community then I can't imagine a better use of this forum.

See also articles we publish like this which show clearly the performance of the 32HR over the Schneider 28LS:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/41027-phase-one-28mm-vs-schneider-28mm-vs-rodenstock-32hr.html

If your purpose is to troll a brand/company that you feel personally slighted by, and you do so in a really annoying repetitive and unproductive way... that is a different matter.

In other words:
equipment experience sharing = productive
thinly veiled witch hunts and crusades = unproductive
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:50:45 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Kitty
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 09:47:48 AM »
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I found it interesting...
As i personally remarked a hudge difference between LS shneiders and Technical shneiders at same price..

I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..? 

And if the Mamiya LS are the same as the Shneider LS lenses only cheaper, isn't that a good thing to know ?..

+1. Member could use their own judgement. People with bad attitude will reflect in their own words.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 10:01:46 AM »
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+1. Member could use their own judgement. People with bad attitude will reflect in their own words.

The problem with this philosophy is that 90% of the people who come here don't visit frequently enough to get a sense for who has what hidden agendas and biases unless they are fully disclosed.

For this reason I have my job/brand affiliations at the bottom of my posts. And anytime I address a post by someone new to the site I go out of my way to start my reply explaining my bias. While I try very hard to provide useful advice based on practical experience rather than marketing/advertising claims I do not pretend or hide that I can be considered entirely objective.

But there is no signature for "My main purpose here is to exact vengeance on a company I have developed a personal vandetta against; while my posts often have some validity which could be intelligently discussed and while my experience and knowledge as a photographer are valuable and could be shared constructively you should know the underlying purpose of this post is to find any nit I can and then pick at it in order to provide as much negativity towards this company as possible."

Such a shame: fredbgg has so much he could offer to this community, but instead he spends hours pouring through advertising videos looking for continuity errors and presenting them as a grand conspiracy of an evil empire.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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kdphotography
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 10:17:36 AM »
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The problem with this philosophy is that 90% of the people who come here don't visit frequently enough to get a sense for who has what hidden agendas and biases unless they are fully disclosed.

For this reason I have my job/brand affiliations at the bottom of my posts. And anytime I address a post by someone new to the site I go out of my way to start my reply explaining my bias. While I try very hard to provide useful advice based on practical experience rather than marketing/advertising claims I do not pretend or hide that I can be considered entirely objective.

But there is no signature for "My main purpose here is to exact vengeance on a company I have developed a personal vandetta against; while my posts often have some validity which could be intelligently discussed and while my experience and knowledge as a photographer are valuable and could be shared constructively you should know the underlying purpose of this post is to find any nit I can and then pick at it in order to provide as much negativity towards this company as possible."

Such a shame: fredbgg has so much he could offer to this community, but instead he spends hours pouring through advertising videos looking for continuity errors and presenting them as a grand conspiracy of an evil empire.

+1.

And instead the forums are populated with "hasty generalizations" postulated as the truth of the whole, which I find to be extremely misleading, disingenuous, offensively paternalistic, and not helpful to the photographic forum community.  

Aside from individual credibility being shot to hell, it adversely effects the credibility of the forum as a whole as a source for reliable information.

IMO.  
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Don Libby
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 10:41:58 AM »
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There needs to be a presence where an honest sharing of information is being presented.  Experience from personal use is much more helpful than diatribes offering nothing more than one persons bitter criticism of what they feel is wrong.  What we don't need is a Ralph Nader type of campaign which is most always just off the mark.

What we also need is a true sharing of information; not one where a person is hiding behind an addenda.

Agree with Doug on this - there's a better target besides medium format to look for that "grand conspiracy of the evil empire".     

Just my 2

Don
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 11:15:09 AM »
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There needs to be a presence where an honest sharing of information is being presented.  Experience from personal use is much more helpful than diatribes offering nothing more than one persons bitter criticism of what they feel is wrong.  What we don't need is a Ralph Nader type of campaign which is most always just off the mark.

What we also need is a true sharing of information; not one where a person is hiding behind an addenda.

Agree with Doug on this - there's a better target besides medium format to look for that "grand conspiracy of the evil empire".     

Just my 2

Don



The issue is that there are many, many people who come here for information. That is the value of the forum. And today people don't have a lot of disposable time on their hands. Time is precious. When time is wasted because of pointless provocations and it is done to an extreme, in large volume, it is a disservice to the forum and forum members and visitors.

Technical vs Medium Format (or even 35mm format) Schneider lenses is a great topic. And there are real world and technical contexts that many members here are capable of presenting that can assist in an understanding of the differences. Too often, that has not been the objective of the OP.

I've been posting on forums since the Rob Galbraith days (and the notorious Jesus thread that was censored). I'm not for censorship, and everyone needs a break once in a while, but moderators do have an obligation to respect and appreciate what visitors come here for, and too much time wasting noise and misinformation doesn't help anybody.

There are many who actually come here to seriously learn about whether they should consider these solutions, which ones are best for them, and how they should use them. We take very seriously the potential of someone who either has spent, or is considering spending a relatively large amount of money on these products, and feel their needs should be respected.


Steve Hendrix
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Gigi
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 01:14:20 PM »
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Both Doug's and Steve's serious and heartfelt replies are much appreciated. These forums are much better places with your participation, both knowledgeable and even-handed. Thank you both.
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Geoff
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 01:44:11 PM »
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I found it interesting...
As i personally remarked a hudge difference between LS shneiders and Technical shneiders at same price..

I mean if we find after a good amount of time, the equipment isn't up to scratch quality wise, can't we say it.. Not to rant on the producer, but to make clear it should evolve in to better stuff..? 

And if the Mamiya LS are the same as the Shneider LS lenses only cheaper, isn't that a good thing to know ?..

I understand Chris or Michaels decision.
I do not think Chris or Micheal closed the thread due to the technical/historical discussion or the pricing, but the personal direction the thread was taking.
I also don't think that they would object to further discussion regarding the design and manufacturing of the lenses.
Actually something that I did not initiate. Rather than discuss the subject of the thread I was criticized and accused of having no more credibility.
I should of not responded to that, so I will take part of the blame.

Regarding credibility and the disputed prices I discussed anyone here can give B+H a call and talk to the pro department. I did this morning.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the prices (and my credibility will be saved;) ). 212.502.6272. (They are both a mail order and the biggest walk in photography store in the country as well as the biggest pro department.They are much more than box movers.)

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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 01:59:16 PM »
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... In other words:
equipment experience sharing = productive
thinly veiled witch hunts and crusades = unproductive

Shouldn't we, the humble readers of this forum, be presumed as adults, capable of discerning which is which? Or we need a nanny for it?
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 02:16:44 PM »
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Hi,

I agree with you both.

My impression is that the moderators want to keep this forum very civilized. Discussions are OK but insults are not.

We also need to keep in mind that those who discuss have very different vantage points. Some are professionals, some are less than wealthy amateurs and some are essentially vendors of equipment. Some are satisfied, some are dissatisfied. Some believe in engineering data and things that can be measured and for some the very same data is of no value.

All that is OK, unless we loose tolerance for the other view.

Best regards
Erik






Shouldn't we, the humble readers of this forum, be presumed as adults, capable of discerning which is which? Or we need a nanny for it?
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 04:21:39 PM »
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Shouldn't we, the humble readers of this forum, be presumed as adults, capable of discerning which is which? Or we need a nanny for it?

Ideally yes, realistically no. Speaking generally, I am a moderator of a fairly large photo forum and even normally even keeled mature adults get caught up in a frenzy sometimes. There is something about the distance and anonymity of online forums that unleashes the worst sometimes in even good rational people.
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Thanks,
Kirk

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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 04:41:41 PM »
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Pretty simple really: when the "Report this Post to Moderator" notifications get too numerous and adulthood becomes questioned - I generally do something about it  - in the hope that the drang & sturm will die away.
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Christopher Sanderson
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 04:47:11 PM »
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Just to clarify: deeply personal insults, vulgarities, curses, etc., as Erik mentioned, is not a part of what I had in mind. For that I agree moderators have a role. Everything else, I would rather be the judge of it.

There are at least two models for internet forums: one practiced by Mike Johnston and his The Online Photographer blog, and the other by LuLa. Mike prescreens every post to make sure it adheres to his standards, and LuLa does not. Both approaches have their pluses and minuses, but I enjoy reading both equally. The trick is to manage your expectations: you (rhetorical you) can't come to an open forum like LuLa, enjoy its pluses (entertainment being one of them), but then complain when its minuses bite you. And vice versa.

I think Fred at all play an important role in this forum. Whether he is an agent provocateur or not, has an agenda or not, is much less relevant to me. What I value is the dissent he brings, for whatever reason. And without dissent, we would not have a healthy debate. And if you (again, rhetorical you) think you figured him out and know his agenda, then skip, ignore, move on, or... engage with a counter argument.
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Slobodan

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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 04:51:42 PM »
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drang & sturm

Ok...had to Google that one....but it seems that you have inverted the word order. I find it written Strum und Drang. I also presume you are referring to the the second definition of "turmoil" and not the first; "a style or movement of German literature of the latter half of the 18th century: characterized chiefly by impetuosity of manner, exaltation of individual sensibility and intuitive perception, opposition to established forms of society and thought, and extreme nationalism."

:~)
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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 04:56:46 PM »
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Ok...had to Google that one....but it seems that you have inverted the word order. I find it written Strum und Drang. I also presume you are referring to the the second definition of "turmoil" and not the first; "a style or movement of German literature of the latter half of the 18th century: characterized chiefly by impetuosity of manner, exaltation of individual sensibility and intuitive perception, opposition to established forms of society and thought, and extreme nationalism."

:~)
Quite so..
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Christopher Sanderson
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 04:59:03 PM »
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Ok...had to Google that one....but it seems that you have inverted the word order. I find it written Strum und Drang....

Since we are nitpicking, I'll play: it would be "sturm" (i.e., storm), not "strum" (i.e., strum, as in guitar strumming). Tongue
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julienlanoo
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 05:53:19 PM »
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Pretty simple really: when the "Report this Post to Moderator" notifications get too numerous and adulthood becomes questioned - I generally do something about it  - in the hope that the drang & sturm will die away.

Thanks Chris for the anwser that was what i was looking for, ..
I don't see what was so insulting on that topic, nothing real offensive was said, maybe no political correct words but if one has to put a sugar glazing over everything..

Explaining why i found it a bit of a shame why it closed down: I thought i would read about other peoples experiences, people who use ( abuse ) those things daily, as i've discussed this with other colleagues having the same "quality" issues, not only on mamiya stuff ...

FYI, i use my real name on this forum, so if you want validation, just google it, nothing to hide here!
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K.C.
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 07:27:32 PM »
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I don't see what was so insulting on that topic, nothing real offensive was said...

You clearly missed a couple of posts that were deleted before the thread was purged.

THANK YOU for removing the thread it was insult to this community to support it any further.
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