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Author Topic: The end of medium format ?  (Read 29843 times)
HarperPhotos
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« Reply #140 on: December 06, 2012, 07:28:49 PM »
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Hi Doug,

I have tried to keep completely out of this debate but your comments below


You have both.

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
* doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them


Well that just floored me and personally sounds like a man clutching at straws.

I own a Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit and a Nikon D800E & D800 and I would be using the Nikons on any project be personal or for a client.

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 08:21:44 PM by HarperPhotos » Logged

Simon Harper
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #141 on: December 06, 2012, 10:44:01 PM »
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Hi,

Just a small reflection, which I think makes some sense. Guy talks about smoothness, which I presume is lack of noise, and he is quite definite on the M9 being smoother than Nikon. I'm pretty sure that does not depend on CCD vs. CMOS. But, there is another difference, and that is the Leica lacking OLP/AA-filter. Now the OLP filter does not affect noise directly, but any OLP filtered camera needs much more sharpening than non OLP. Sharpening would increase noise.


My interest into CCD vs. CMOS has little to do with MFD vs 135 CMOS but very much with my interest of technology. If there is something that is not obvious I want to find out why and how. I'm an engineer by profession not a photographer. But I do take pictures: http://echophoto.smugmug.com/

Best regards
Erik


Guy,
    I get what you are saying: your observations on the DMF vs D800 comparison, which are certainly relevant to that ongoing debate, and should be useful given your professional credentials.

But I doubt this is about "CCD VS CMOS", anymore than is about "Made in Europe vs Made in Asia", despite the perfect correlation of CCD=Europe=smooth, CMOS=Asia=less smooth in the camera origins.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #142 on: December 06, 2012, 11:19:16 PM »
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Hi,

Just as a comment I actually think that Phase is a great company with what to seem to be nice people. True, I don't use their products, and that has a lot to do with cost and a lot to do with need.

I also see that Phase One has done a great job building a decent camera system after Hasselblad locked everyone else out from their system. I understand that Phase tried to acquire rights and tools for Contax 645 from Kyocera, but no agreement was made. Great pity, Contax 645 was and still is a great system.

One problem with MF for me is that I really love live view and I'm also a quality freak. The combo I would find attractive would be a camera like the Alpa but using LV for focus. The ultimate camera for me may be the Hartblei H1, but with LV. Honestly, I still guess that I would not spend the money, but the attraction would be there.

It seems that CMOS is essentially needed for live view to work well. I would not rule out that Phase One would be able to source an MF CMOS sensor, like Leica has done for the new Leica M, that sensor is designed by CMOSIS and fabbed at STMicroelectronics. It seems that a small company like Leica can develop a CMOS sensor of they own. Phase has built up a camera system to fit their sensors, so I think they may have enough muscle to develop their own sensor, like Leica did.
http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/25/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-iii-new-entrants-and-look-forward/


I would still not buy a Phase One Hartblei combo even with LV and CMOS, because of the cost. But in the unlikely event anyone gave me something like 30000Ä I guess that a combo like that would be my first priority.

Best regards
Erik


Yes maybe so. Just interesting that on the art side of the house folks are seeing this as well. Maybe also a good diversion of how much I hate Phase negativity. ROTFLMAO

Alright you folks have fun, need to get back to some projects.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 11:21:49 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

TMARK
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« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2012, 08:39:10 AM »
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You have both.

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
- doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them

Doug,

T-Max in the Blad or RZ, or sheet film!

But if I were to shoot that project digitally with the parameters who suggest, I'd do it with the biggest brightest viewfinder I could find, with the biggest chip.  A Credo 80 on an AFi or RZ or Hx or a 501cm. 

T
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TMARK
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« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2012, 08:46:17 AM »
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Simon,

The D800e is brilliant.  I do, however, enjoy using an MF camera, mainly for the viewfinder.  So if I were shooting a slow paced project, and shooting it digitally, I would go for the biggest VF I could find. 

My ONLY gripe with the D800e (after I worked out my color issues) is that I wish it had a larger viewfinder.  Not that the 800's VF is bad at all, I just wish it were larger.

T

Hi Doug,

I have tried to keep completely out of this debate but your comments below


You have both.

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
* doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them


Well that just floored me and personally sounds like a man clutching at straws.

I own a Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit and a Nikon D800E & D800 and I would be using the Nikons on any project be personal or for a client.

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Cheers

Simon

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TMARK
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« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2012, 08:49:59 AM »
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I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Cheers

Simon


I sold my Aptus.  I would have kept it if it were V mount.  I will more than likely get a V mount back of the older generation for fun, for a different look, and I believe there is a V to RZ adapter. 
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2012, 09:03:47 AM »
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Well that just floored me and personally sounds like a man clutching at straws.

I own a Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit and a Nikon D800E & D800 and I would be using the Nikons on any project be personal or for a client.

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Sounds like a man who knows TMark pretty well :-)*. As the lawyers say, never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.

TMark would prefer to work with MF when it is both practical and the photographic task is within MF's areas of strength (e.g. lower ISO, time to get it right etc). He of course uses his dSLR when that is a better choice or when practicality dictates it.

My overall point is that personal preference should never be under stated as a motivation to use one camera or another. If someone likes working with a given camera and it helps them execute their vision, increase their business, or just plain enjoy the process of image making more - then that is all that should really matter to that shooter. Nobody should get worked up that someone else prefers a different tool. If a given camera fit me well, and not one other person in the whole world liked it, I'd still be happy with it.

You say you'd prefer your D800/E for all personal and client shooting. If that is true you should sell your Aptus 75 today. My assumption is that you haven't done so because for any frustration you have right now you still enjoy shooting with it more than with your D800. But if there is no (or rarely) circumstance in which that is true you should not own it; it's not the right tool for you. Why do you have it?

*At least as well as one can gleam from posts; we still haven't met up for a beer (how bout it TMark?)
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2012, 09:06:20 AM »
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I sold my Aptus.  I would have kept it if it were V mount.  I will more than likely get a V mount back of the older generation for fun, for a different look, and I believe there is a V to RZ adapter. 

Indeed. V mount backs work great with RZ. You're welcome to reach out by email and let us know that you want to be informed as relevant backs come through as pre-owned.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #148 on: December 07, 2012, 09:10:53 AM »
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Hi Doug,

I have tried to keep completely out of this debate but your comments below


You have both.

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
* doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them


Well that just floored me and personally sounds like a man clutching at straws.

I own a Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit and a Nikon D800E & D800 and I would be using the Nikons on any project be personal or for a client.

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Cheers

Simon



While there are many who no longer shoot medium or large format at all and exclusively utilize a 35mm DSLR, there are others who desire and even require using something different as well. While Doug's examples may not have rang true with you, I think his meaning is that a photographer may choose a different camera for different conditions, depending on those conditions and the applicability of a given camera system. I believe that has been a traditional approach for photographers for many, many years.

While perhaps the crafting of his message was not perfect, I understand his meaning and am not thrown by it. The idea that one is clutching at straws to desperately try to convey a reason to shoot medium format seems kind of extreme, but I can understand your reaction, given the set of conditions that were listed. The fact is - photographers who choose to use medium format do so for many reasons, rational ones, logical ones, even emotional ones. In an odd way, I think emotion is a key factor in equipment use.

Edit - I mean, not actually in an odd way, I think it is prevalent; odd only in that it doesn't get discussed much, nor can a manufacturer easily present it as a feature, but the emotional response to products is naturally very substantial.


Steve Hendrix
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design_freak
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« Reply #149 on: December 07, 2012, 09:11:38 AM »
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You say you'd prefer your D800/E for all personal and client shooting. If that is true you should sell your Aptus 75 today. My assumption is that you haven't done so because for any frustration you have right now you still enjoy shooting with it more than with your D800. But if there is no (or rarely) circumstance in which that is true you should not own it; it's not the right tool for you. Why do you have it?

*At least as well as one can gleam from posts; we still haven't met up for a beer (how bout it TMark?)

Maybe because the value that can be achieved is not an incentive to do so...
Some people have a fondness for their tools, even if they do not use them anymore  Wink
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DF

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KLaban
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« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2012, 09:49:32 AM »
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It's the differences between folk that make life interesting. Same applies to cameras. Life is all the poorer without diversity.

Just imagine if we as photographers were limited to the mainstream, the all singing all dancing D800/5Ds of this world; what a desperately dull place this would be

Those who would dance on the grave of MFD should be careful what they wish for.

 
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2012, 10:27:06 AM »
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Those who would dance on the grave of MFD should be careful what they wish for.

 

Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.
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design_freak
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« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2012, 11:08:22 AM »
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I'm sorry, but I think prices should be much higher. More money on R & D = better products. It is not always cheaper product means higher profits.
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DF

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gerald.d
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« Reply #153 on: December 07, 2012, 11:12:57 AM »
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Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.

Not sure I fully understand what you're saying here.

Are you claiming that the existence of a MFDB market is keeping the price of 35mm DSLR's in check?
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #154 on: December 07, 2012, 11:28:27 AM »
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Three players?

Let's see, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax, Leica, Mamiya, Leaf.

But just two makers of MF sensors, Dalsa and TrueSense.


Best regards
Erik



Not sure I fully understand what you're saying here.

Are you claiming that the existence of a MFDB market is keeping the price of 35mm DSLR's in check?
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design_freak
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« Reply #155 on: December 07, 2012, 11:40:57 AM »
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Three players?

Let's see, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax, Leica, Mamiya, Leaf.

But just two makers of MF sensors, Dalsa and TrueSense.


Best regards
Erik




As I understand
PhaseOne, (PhaseOne, MamiyaLeaf), Hasselblad, Leica
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FredBGG
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« Reply #156 on: December 07, 2012, 11:50:20 AM »
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You say you'd prefer your D800/E for all personal and client shooting. If that is true you should sell your Aptus 75 today. My assumption is that you haven't done so because for any frustration you have right now you still enjoy shooting with it more than with your D800. But if there is no (or rarely) circumstance in which that is true you should not own it; it's not the right tool for you. Why do you have it?


That's really an un called for comment. Typical attitude of holier than thou "we know better" attitude of some MF dealers.
Part of the pattern of criticizing and demeaning working photographers that are moving away from MF.

I can think of many logical reasons to keep the camera for a few more months.
Maybe he is still getting familiar with the D800.
Maybe he has only one D800 for now. Having a backup is smart. Might be holding out for a D4x...
Maybe better to sell his used gear next fiscal year
Maybe he is just being responsibly cautious.
Maybe he does not need the cash quickly... he seems to be quite a busy photographer Wink
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #157 on: December 07, 2012, 11:51:34 AM »
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Not sure I fully understand what you're saying here.

Are you claiming that the existence of a MFDB market is keeping the price of 35mm DSLR's in check?

Sure just like 4/3rds gear. The more companies pouring out products in the photo market regardless of format N and C have to stay competitive to the market. Bottom line its all about market share and shareholder value. If John and Sally are buying MF and Susan and Jeff are buying 4/3rds it does eat into classic 35mm DSLR market since they are going outside of it and not buying Canon or Nikon. US as consumers WANT more products and companies in the market as it keeps the market competitive.


Oh and I forgot Pentax and Sinar, my bad. Phase , Leaf and Mamiya are really under 1 company Phase One( they serve different markets). Contax really is a dead company so not in the new market. Shame too
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« Reply #158 on: December 07, 2012, 12:12:55 PM »
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I just lurve 'Freddie, The Messiah's' little winks.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #159 on: December 07, 2012, 12:18:13 PM »
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That's really an un called for comment. Typical attitude of holier than thou "we know better" attitude of some MF dealers.
Part of the pattern of criticizing and demeaning working photographers that are moving away from MF.

I can think of many logical reasons to keep the camera for a few more months.
Maybe he is still getting familiar with the D800.
Maybe he has only one D800 for now. Having a backup is smart. Might be holding out for a D4x...
Maybe better to sell his used gear next fiscal year
Maybe he is just being responsibly cautious.
Maybe he does not need the cash quickly... he seems to be quite a busy photographer Wink

LOL, you're the greatest Fred  Kiss
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