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Author Topic: The end of medium format ?  (Read 30666 times)
gerald.d
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« Reply #160 on: December 07, 2012, 12:33:06 PM »
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Sure just like 4/3rds gear. The more companies pouring out products in the photo market regardless of format N and C have to stay competitive to the market. Bottom line its all about market share and shareholder value. If John and Sally are buying MF and Susan and Jeff are buying 4/3rds it does eat into classic 35mm DSLR market since they are going outside of it and not buying Canon or Nikon. US as consumers WANT more products and companies in the market as it keeps the market competitive.


Oh and I forgot Pentax and Sinar, my bad. Phase , Leaf and Mamiya are really under 1 company Phase One( they serve different markets). Contax really is a dead company so not in the new market. Shame too

I don't buy that argument at all. Was it earlier in this thread that someone was explaining how a single Canon factory would churn out more product, value, and profit, in a single day than the entire MFDB industry in a year?

Claiming that the existence of an MFDB market keeps the price of Canons and Nikons in check is akin to claiming that Toyota consider the price of the Bugatti Veyron when setting the price of the Prius.

MFT is a totally different argument.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #161 on: December 07, 2012, 12:38:27 PM »
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Contax really is a dead company so not in the new market. Shame too

Contax never was a company. It is a brand name owned by Cark Zeiss. The Name was licensed to Kyochera.
Kyochera is far from being dead it has a market capitalization of $ 17 billion.
They are still a very advanced imaging company and are also a growing telecom company. Smart phones etc.
Carl Zeiss is doing just fine too. EUR 4.24 billion in annual revenues.. up more than a billion from the previous year.

So the companies are very sound and still heavily in the imaging world.
They simply saw little future in MF and stopped making MF gear. Looking at their financial
state it looks like they made a smart move.

One of the main reasons the Contax system did not go to someone else is that Kyocera
sold nearly all of the machining equipment used to Canon.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #162 on: December 07, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »
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I have a D800e and Pentax 645D. At ISO 1600, the Pentax is better, but the D800 goes higher--I have not had a chance to push 645D past 1600. The Pentax files are better generally. The ergonomics of the Pentax wins hands down--the D800 is a bit of a brick (it also feels a little cheap). Video in the Pentax is wanting and so is live view, but I can live without live view, especially since the viewfinder in the MF camera is that much bigger. The D800 is a fine camera, but it is still a 35mm camera. I like my D800, but it doesn't really excite me. So while I do do some great work with my D800, it is the Pentax I prefer. Could a viewer tell the difference between the two, maybe not, but I need to be the first person to please.

YMMV...
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FredBGG
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« Reply #163 on: December 07, 2012, 12:50:43 PM »
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Three players?

Let's see, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax, Leica, Mamiya, Leaf.

But just two makers of MF sensors, Dalsa and TrueSense.


Best regards
Erik

Shusssh.... Don't mention Pentax MF. Less expensive, but in many ways more advanced, also a maker of DSLRs
and now part of a $6.62 billion imaging company.

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FredBGG
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« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2012, 12:52:37 PM »
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It's the differences between folk that make life interesting. Same applies to cameras. Life is all the poorer without diversity.

Just imagine if we as photographers were limited to the mainstream, the all singing all dancing D800/5Ds of this world; what a desperately dull place this would be

Those who would dance on the grave of MFD should be careful what they wish for.

 

Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.

Pentax Wink

The price of 35mm DSLRs has nothing to do with the tiny market of MFD. There is very strong and healthy competition between the various 35mm brands.
Just look at Canons recent price drop. This price drop has nothing to do with MF prices that are more than 5 times higher for essentially the equivalent IQ.
This is as a result of competition from Nikon and other 35mm DSLR manufacturers.

As far as expensive cameras go both Nikon and Canon have for a long time offered top of the end cameras in both heavier construction at a higher price
and lighter construction at a lower price, but with equivalent IQ. Seems to me that both Nikon and Canon come from a culture of empowering their clients
and keeping entry level costs very very low.

The big three companies often make large investments in other photography companies. Sony just invested over half a billion dollars in Olympus.
If they saw real growth potential in MF they would be shopping....
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 02:27:11 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #165 on: December 07, 2012, 12:55:13 PM »
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I don't buy that argument at all. Was it earlier in this thread that someone was explaining how a single Canon factory would churn out more product, value, and profit, in a single day than the entire MFDB industry in a year?

Claiming that the existence of an MFDB market keeps the price of Canons and Nikons in check is akin to claiming that Toyota consider the price of the Bugatti Veyron when setting the price of the Prius.

MFT is a totally different argument.

Difference of opinion , but the more products in the market be it higher or lower will have a impact on everyone since folks are given more choices to go outside 35mm.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #166 on: December 07, 2012, 12:58:18 PM »
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Contax never was a company. It is a brand name owned by Cark Zeiss. The Name was licensed to Kyochera.
Kyochera is far from being dead it has a market capitalization of $ 17 billion.
They are still a very advanced imaging company and are also a growing telecom company. Smart phones etc.
Carl Zeiss is doing just fine too. EUR 4.24 billion in annual revenues.. up more than a billion from the previous year.

So the companies are very sound and still heavily in the imaging world.
They simply saw little future in MF and stopped making MF gear. Looking at their financial
state it looks like they made a smart move.

One of the main reasons the Contax system did not go to someone else is that Kyocera
sold nearly all of the machining equipment used to Canon.

The comment related to actual product you can buy in the MF market.

Side note . I do not wish to dialogue with you at all so please leave me out of your posts and comments. Thanks I would appreciate that.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 01:01:38 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

bcooter
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« Reply #167 on: December 07, 2012, 01:11:26 PM »
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Fred,

OK . .  . do you know these dealers and reps, Doug, Steve and Yair?  I do and I can promise you, in fact I'll bet you almost anything that few if anyone would ever say they are demeaning.

I don't agree with everything they say, (who agrees 100% with anyone) and they want to sell equipment, but hey man, who doesn't want to sell their products and services?

The last two weeks for our studio was the perfect example of what Doug was talking about.  We shot a large lifestyle project with many multiples of talent, all ethnic origins, many multiple locations under an incredibly compressed schedule.

I could have shot 90% with my medium format cameras and yes I honestly believe it would have produced a better overall project, but the client and their respect agency wants a lot of volume and medium format is a little slower so we shot 75% 35mm 25% medium format.  

Use to 15% slower on anything didn't matter in 2007, but in today's marketplace 15% of time is about 4 sessions.  

Anyway, I won't sell my mfd cameras because I don't need to, I still use them and I have a rule that I rarely sell anything if I can't buy it again for the same or less price and I doubt if I could sell my large Contax kit with two of everything, including backs and lenses and buy them again for the same price.

Maybe next year I'll even buy another mfd camera, I haven't had time to decide yet, but after processing 25 trillion images the last few days from Nikons and Canons I know I'd rather have shot it all with my Contax and Phase backs.

The skin tones are better, the file is just different (I believe because it's a ccd sensor) and I loathe Nikon skin tones and double loathe 35mm viewfinders and we shoot about a gazillion images of all stripes every year.

This is 8 months worth of projects, all full 1 terabyte drives (originals, not backups which are in another location on Raid 5's).


Also like it or not, when I look at our dit station we use (excuse the mess, but this is end of day as we're tearing down), the one thing that would be difficult to replaces for  in all of our still cameras is C-1 for tethering and client review.  That's the gold standar especially if your shooting Nikons and Canons.


In fact since this year we bought REDs, we're pretty much up to speed on all motion cameras, so next year I'll probably buy some new still cameras.  A H5d, or Leaf/Mamiya/Phase for faster flash sync with leaf shutter lenses.

If I had time I'd do it this year, but I'm on the road right up to the start of the Holidays.

________________________________________________________________________


But Fred, let me pose a hypothetical question for you.  

You get a call to shoot Charlize Theron for a high 6 figure Dior project.  Are you going to show up with just your Nikons or will you also rent a medium format camera?

I'll bet, whether you use it or not, they're will be two medium format cameras on set.

Maybe not, but I know I'd have enough cameras there to fill up the room.

But then again,  we're all different.

IMO

BC

P.S.  In regards to digital cameras, or any cameras, people use what they like and feel comfortable with.  In the motion imagery biz, there are DP's that won't touch anything but an Arri, even if you can prove a RED does it better, or vice versa.  People use what they trust and like.

P.S.2  I apologize for adding fuel to the fire on this thread as IMO I think it's just a way to googleize a negative towards certain brands.

Which is a real shame because I'd rather see all of this effort in showing images like Simon does with his D800 or any camera system.

That's a lot more instructive and positive than showing a bunch of web images trying to prove a point.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 01:15:13 PM by bcooter » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #168 on: December 07, 2012, 01:11:55 PM »
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I have a D800e and Pentax 645D. At ISO 1600, the Pentax is better, but the D800 goes higher--I have not had a chance to push 645D past 1600. The Pentax files are better generally. The ergonomics of the Pentax wins hands down--the D800 is a bit of a brick (it also feels a little cheap). Video in the Pentax is wanting and so is live view, but I can live without live view, especially since the viewfinder in the MF camera is that much bigger. The D800 is a fine camera, but it is still a 35mm camera. I like my D800, but it doesn't really excite me. So while I do do some great work with my D800, it is the Pentax I prefer. Could a viewer tell the difference between the two, maybe not, but I need to be the first person to please.

YMMV...

I don't think the D800 feels cheap.  It feels precise, solid, almost as solid as the best 35mm SLR ever made, the F5.  The 5D1 and 2 feel cheap, certainly the CF door feels like the battery cover on my daughter's Barbie car.  Nikon needs to dump the on camera flash and put a real prism on the thing, like the one on the F4, F3HP, and F5.  I had a waistlevel for the F5 that I liked very much. I would even remove the prism from the F4 and use it without a finder, which was doable.  Limited to spot metering, but the screen was so bright you could use it outside.
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HarperPhotos
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« Reply #169 on: December 07, 2012, 01:12:07 PM »
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Hello,

Fred is right on a number of his assumptions.

Yes I am still getting my head around the Nikon D800E but mostly trying to get stable software to work e.g. Phase One Capture 7. Unfortunately Control My Nikon won't be avaiable to mid 2013 for Mac.

I now own D800E and D800 as I sold my Nikon D3x last week. It was a great camera but the D800s files are fatter like my Leaf Aptus 75/Mamiya RZ.

Why I have given myself six months or even sooner is prior to the D800E there was a very big difference between the Nikon D3x and Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ so when it did come to

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
* doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them

as stated by Doug yes it was the camera I went for.

But since May when I got the D800E I quickly noticed that I didnít seem to be grabbing the RZ as much if at all.

Iíve been using my Mamiya RZ now for 23 years and I have a very strong affection for the old girl especially the waist level view finder and all those awesome lenses. But like the Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit if its not making money its out.

Sad but true.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 02:56:38 PM by HarperPhotos » Logged

Simon Harper
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #170 on: December 07, 2012, 01:17:53 PM »
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Fred,

OK . .  . do you know these dealers and reps, Doug, Steve and Yair?  I do and I can promise you, in fact I'll bet you almost anything that few if anyone would ever say they are demeaning.

I don't agree with everything they say, (who agrees 100% with anyone) and they want to sell equipment, but hey man, who doesn't want to sell their products and services?

The last two weeks for our studio was the perfect example of what Doug was talking about.  We shot a large lifestyle project with many multiples of talent, all ethnic origins, many multiple locations under an incredibly compressed schedule.

I could have shot 90% with my medium format cameras and yes I honestly believe it would have produced a better overall project, but the client and their respect agency wants a lot of volume and medium format is a little slower so we shot 75% 35mm 25% medium format.  

Use to 15% slower on anything didn't matter in 2007, but in today's marketplace 15% of time is about 4 sessions.  

Anyway, I won't sell my mfd cameras because I don't need to, I still use them and I have a rule that I rarely sell anything if I can't buy it again for the same or less price and I doubt if I could sell my large Contax kit with two of everything, including backs and lenses and buy them again for the same price.

Maybe next year I'll even buy another mfd camera, I haven't had time to decide yet, but after processing 25 trillion images the last few days from Nikons and Canons I know I'd rather have shot it all with my Contax and Phase backs.

The skin tones are better, the file is just different (I believe because it's a ccd sensor) and I loathe Nikon skin tones and double loathe 35mm viewfinders and we shoot about a gazillion images of all stripes every year.

This is 8 months worth of projects, all full 1 terabyte drives (originals, not backups which are in another location on Raid 5's).


Also like it or not, when I look at our dit station we use (excuse the mess, but this is end of day as we're tearing down), the one thing that would be difficult to replaces for  in all of our still cameras is C-1 for tethering and client review.  That's the gold standar especially if your shooting Nikons and Canons.


In fact since this year we bought REDs, we're pretty much up to speed on all motion cameras, so next year I'll probably buy some new still cameras.  A H5d, or Leaf/Mamiya/Phase for faster flash sync with leaf shutter lenses.

If I had time I'd do it this year, but I'm on the road right up to the start of the Holidays.

________________________________________________________________________


But Fred, let me pose a hypothetical question for you.  

You get a call to shoot Charlize Theron for a high 6 figure Dior project.  Are you going to show up with just your Nikons or will you also rent a medium format camera?

I'll bet, whether you use it or not, they're will be two medium format cameras on set.

Maybe not, but I know I'd have enough cameras there to fill up the room.

But then again,  we're all different.

IMO

BC

P.S.  In regards to digital cameras, or any cameras, people use what they like and feel comfortable with.  In the motion imagery biz, there are DP's that won't touch anything but an Arri, even if you can prove a RED does it better, or vice versa.  People use what they trust and like.

P.S.2  I apologize for adding fuel to the fire on this thread as IMO I think it's just a way to googleize a negative towards certain brands.

Which is a real shame because I'd rather see all of this effort in showing images like Simon does with his D800 or any camera system.

That's a lot more instructive and positive than showing a bunch of web images trying to prove a point.



Total side note and don't have to answer here but curious as at one time we talked you mentioned the Red software was killing you guys, just wondering if that has improved a great deal.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #171 on: December 07, 2012, 01:21:15 PM »
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Hello,

Fred is write on a number of his assumptions.

Yes I am still getting my head around the Nikon D800E but mostly trying to get stable software to work e.g. Phase One Capture 7. Unfortunately Control My Nikon won't be avaiable to mid 2013 for Mac.

I now own D800E and D800 as I sold my Nikon D3x last week. It was a great camera but the D800s file a fatter like my Leaf Aptus 75/Mamiya RZ.

Why I have given myself six months or even sooner is prior to the D800E there was a very big difference between the Nikon D3x and Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ so when it did come to

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
* doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them

as stated by Doug yes it was the camera I went for.

But since May when I got the D800E I quickly noticed that I didnít seem to be grabbing the RZ as much if at all.

Iíve been using my Mamiya RZ now for 23 years and I have a very strong affection for the old girl especially the waist level view finder and all those awesome lenses. But like the Sinar P2 and Mamiya 645AFDII if its not making money its out.

Sad but true.

Cheers

Simon


OT but Simon try as best you can to stick with C1 7 as it is the best by far for the Nikons. I tested them all and it still goes back in there camp. But you have to get some standards with it and yes that does take some time. Ping me if you need a little help in some settings.
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HarperPhotos
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« Reply #172 on: December 07, 2012, 01:27:44 PM »
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Hi Guy,

Thanks for the offer as the the Phase One guys here in New Zealand couldnít even find there own asses let alone know how to use C7.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 06:41:50 PM by HarperPhotos » Logged

Simon Harper
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #173 on: December 07, 2012, 01:40:09 PM »
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Yes I am still getting my head around the Nikon D800E but mostly trying to get stable software to work e.g. Phase One Capture 7. Unfortunately Control My Nikon won't be avaiable to mid 2013 for Mac.

And I'll bet dollars to dimes that when Control My Nikon (CMN) launches it's first public version that it will have at least a few minor bugs. I say that not as a negative on CMN but because you can fill in any name from any company with the statement "[XYZ] version 1.0 has bugs".

Here's the thing, you're needlessly hitting yourself over the head. Capture One 7 is at version 7.0.1; it's going to have some bugs.

That may or may not be the way things "should be" and it may or may not be "fair" or whatever, but that is simply the case with every major new release of every major piece of software from every software maker. If you want something that will have rock solid stability, you should simply wait out brand new versions of software. If you want to be on the bleeding edge - you are likely to bleed a little. I do NOT mean to be trite or harsh and my tone here, if it's not clear from the written word on a forum, is not to be demeaning or insulting or anything negative; I just genuinely want you to understand that YOU are not doing anything wrong - struggling against bugs in an early release of a major new version of any software is a fact of digital life. You can struggle against it, acquiesce to it, or simply sit out the storm by waiting a bit. This will be true of Capture One 8.0, it will be true of OSX 10.9.0, it will be true of LR5.0, and it will be true of CMN1.0. At best you can hope that your particular configuration and usage won't trip any of the bugs (and so it will be smooth for you) but there WILL be bugs for at least some configurations and at least some usages.

BCooter, if you follow all of his posts, is super conservative with his tethered configurations. He only uses well tested highly recommended versions of software, everything is thoroughly cleaned/labeled/tested, everything (once tested) remains static (no upgrading software just because something new is out, no trying something new out on a job). And guess what? He rarely has any significant problems despite following some crazy intensive schedules and producing a LOT (literally, as you can see above, a "stack full of drives" worth) images. (obviously Bcooter: jump in if I misrepresent anything).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 01:56:44 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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KLaban
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« Reply #174 on: December 07, 2012, 01:56:20 PM »
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Quote from: KLaban
Those who would dance on the grave of MFD should be careful what they wish for.


Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.


Fred, please don't associate my quote with Guy's. I can assure you the two have no common ground.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 01:59:12 PM by KLaban » Logged

bcooter
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« Reply #175 on: December 07, 2012, 02:06:19 PM »
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Doug, we don't have a lot of issues, but we NEVER use our capture computers for anything but capturing and on set processing.  NEVER and if I see an assistant watching a u-tooob video on one of them I go crazy.

We keep it clean, don't update until we have to and we test the s**t out of everything using worst case scenario as a goal. In other words we shoot a huge burst of files, yank the cord, plug it in an see what happens.

We process in the background (every client asks to send an few jpegs back to their cd or client) and keep shooting.  We let the batteries run down to zero and see what happens.  In other words, we know the worst before we go into a project.

Also prior to production, we also lay out all of our cameras on a big white sheet and clean everything, every lens, every contact like we're polishing jewels.  

In fact of the e-mails and calls I get from people about issues they have with connection, 99.999999999% all use their computers for other functions and have full drives, old software laying around in them, try running 12 applications when working, etc. etc.

I'm not bragging or talking down, but if you treat this business like it's life and death, you rarely have any problems.  If you work with good people and suppliers you rarely have any problems.

If an artist or a client pushes you into cutting corners . . . then there are problems, but we all know that.

IMO

BC
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FredBGG
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« Reply #176 on: December 07, 2012, 02:22:31 PM »
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But Fred, let me pose a hypothetical question for you.  

You get a call to shoot Charlize Theron for a high 6 figure Dior project.  Are you going to show up with just your Nikons or will you also rent a medium format camera?

I'll bet, whether you use it or not, they're will be two medium format cameras on set.

Maybe not, but I know I'd have enough cameras there to fill up the room.

If and that's a very big IF.
That would very much depend on what images they based their decision on. The last thing I would do is have a
room full of cameras. I would choose the right camera and that is what I would use.

For the beauty advertising I have done (L'Oreal, Wella, Monteil, AOK, and many others)  I have nearly always chosen the format or camera I have used for
the photos that the client/agency based their decision on.

I recently did a shoot with Ashley Greene from Twilight for Mark cosmetics. I still had MF digital, but chose to shoot it with a 35mm DSLR.

That said I don't exclude renting or even buying MFD again in the future. Things would have to change significantly on the functionality front though.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 06:48:29 PM by FredBGG » Logged
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« Reply #177 on: December 07, 2012, 02:28:55 PM »
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Quote from: KLaban
Those who would dance on the grave of MFD should be careful what they wish for.


Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.


Fred, please don't associate my quote with Guy's. I can assure you the two have no common ground.




Oops... when you quote a post that has a quote in it that quote does not carry over. Fixed it now. Smiley
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« Reply #178 on: December 07, 2012, 03:03:13 PM »
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Oops... when you quote a post that has a quote in it that quote does not carry over. Fixed it now. Smiley

Fred, what I can't understand is why you chose to lump together my quote with Guy's? As I said, the two have no common ground. The fact is I disagree with Guy's post. It would be better if you removed my quote.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #179 on: December 07, 2012, 03:53:00 PM »
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Fred, what I can't understand is why you chose to lump together my quote with Guy's? As I said, the two have no common ground. The fact is I disagree with Guy's post. It would be better if you removed my quote.

Sorry. It's was not my intention to "lump you in", it was just to give the response you had received some context as the response doesn't read clearly without what he was responding to.
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