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Author Topic: The end of medium format ?  (Read 30448 times)
BJL
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« Reply #240 on: December 11, 2012, 03:20:02 PM »
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I can think of a few I'd like to see:
- long term CMOS (for faster/more-flexible live view) if/when it can be done without compromising quality
- ...
- internally rotating sensor would be nice but with Arca Rotamount this is less critical now to me
- longer exposures than 2 min
...
Doug,
    Thanks for your rational input, and patience with some posters. I like your list, but cannot resist mentioning that one way to make rotating for verticals more convenient is ... CMOS sensors, allowing video viewfinders, aka real live view (not the half-baked "tape-delayed" almost live view offered by some MF cameras). Because a rear-screen can stay just as usable when the body is rotated, a jumbo-sized off-board external screen could be conveniently positioned regardless of camera orientation, and a peep-hole EVF could be removable with mounts both on the top and on one side. Like the two flash hot-shoes on Pentax 645 bodies (By the way, has Phase One copied that elegant idea?)

CMOS sensors could probably also help with your last item, about longer exposures and dark current noise control.
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torger
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« Reply #241 on: December 11, 2012, 03:45:35 PM »
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It's not like a lack of money so throw that case scenario out the window it's simple not the case.

When a hobbyist buys a camera system for $50K it is generally not a lack of money involved. However, I would assume you don't get to the workshops those that didn't buy one because they thought it was too expensive. Heck, I generally think even workshops are too expensive Cheesy

My question is that with continued improvement of image quality in mass market DSLRs and experienced reduced difference in image quality, for how long can the MF products stay the way they are? And if a change is required what is that, is it getting to even higher image quality, or is it trying to sell in larger numbers (i e lower prices, targeting more amateurs), becoming a luxury brand (Hasselblad, good luck!), or will a CMOS sensor save us all?

If we listen to manufacturers and salesmen there is no problem whatsoever, the D800 did not break any quality barrier and changed nothing. Maybe that's the case. I don't have the sales trends. But time will tell.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #242 on: December 11, 2012, 04:04:52 PM »
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When a hobbyist buys a camera system for $50K it is generally not a lack of money involved. However, I would assume you don't get to the workshops those that didn't buy one because they thought it was too expensive. Heck, I generally think even workshops are too expensive Cheesy

My question is that with continued improvement of image quality in mass market DSLRs and experienced reduced difference in image quality, for how long can the MF products stay the way they are? And if a change is required what is that, is it getting to even higher image quality, or is it trying to sell in larger numbers (i e lower prices, targeting more amateurs), becoming a luxury brand (Hasselblad, good luck!), or will a CMOS sensor save us all?

If we listen to manufacturers and salesmen there is no problem whatsoever, the D800 did not break any quality barrier and changed nothing. Maybe that's the case. I don't have the sales trends. But time will tell.

 We get both with and without but mostly they have a MF DSLR usually on hand at least. We also get Leica's and Nikon shooters.


On the CMOS issue. Now Im not going to argue one way or the other on it but MF has enjoyed the benefits of CCD for so long we have to start asking real questions if CMOS is truly the answer. Lets look at 35mm CMOS today there are some added benefits like higher ISO , live view and such. Now like I said earlier there are downsides too with CMOS we lose those ISO 35 and 50 settings since they raise the floor on ISO and for a guy shooting water ISO is a stop to fast even with ND filters and that is not always a good thing. I still contend there is a look difference as well be it real or perceived it is there in my mind. Again just bringing up points that maybe it may not be the holy grail. Another big one, sure it maybe cheaper to make in the 35mm size world but has anyone said it will be cheaper in a Full Frame MF back world. Something we don't really know until someone puts one in full production like a Phase or Hassy. Not saying no one is looking at it or even working on it . I bet my bottom dollar they are but we have to ask ourselves as shooters is it going to be worth it in the end , will it bring costs down , will it bring more folks to enter the market and will the quality of file be better or worse and/or the same. Guess what i am saying is there are a lot of very unanswered questions as of today and it is going to be interesting to see how that all plays out. One other thing is if everything is CMOS than do we lose some identity between formats. If CMOS is the same on all systems than one wonders if there are advantages or not to MF at that point. I see both good things and than I see questionable things as well. Are we driving down performance here at the same costs or are we truly improving at the same costs. I dont know the answers but I do know the questions and there are a lot of them. Something to noodle for sure. Personally Im not so sure I would want CMOS in a MF back and I think there are folks that may feel the same way. Sure I would like Live View but again at what costs in performance if any. Interesting to see how the reality will come into play on it. Lets face it I like my Nikon a lot but it is no MF file either, they are different and i ran a ton of tests on it and sure its been said a million times when a new cam hits the streets this will kill MF and it really has not happened and I agree the D800 has closed the gap better than anything else that has hit the streets but it still does not look the same.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 04:10:26 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

fcicconi
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« Reply #243 on: December 11, 2012, 04:11:35 PM »
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The argument is no longer 'about good enough' or 'IQ'.   Plenty of people got their work done with the Canon 1DS or 5d2.  The Nikon D3x was overkill.  People are using their iphones now for all kinds of stuff!   

The discussion is about how you work, what you like, and what works for you.   

MF has a different look
MF has a different crop ratio
MF has a big viewfinder
MF has finder options
MF has faster sync
MF has leaf shutter lenses
MF can shoot film or digital


I'm Agree!!
With my client is important show that i've not the same camera that they have... MF is a professional value
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julienlanoo
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« Reply #244 on: December 11, 2012, 04:17:39 PM »
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Might be a remark already given about MF,

But other than the "quality" and " look " , it's an other way of shooting,

Much much much slower, relax, i am putting lots of effort in building my self a as slow as possible camera, ...
With a Tech cam and a back attached for instance, and a tripod, and a hudge protocol to make the image.

Why? Because you think twice before shooting an image, and just the machine enforces a calm " zen " attitude, ...
Also the " ratio " of the sensor size, is just some thing that feels better to me.. Man some - one make me a 6x9 inch sensor, it does not need 100 mpix, 40 or 45 is fine !!...

Well quality wise, you know, i still prefere P25 images over P65 images, so Mpix who cares,
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FredBGG
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« Reply #245 on: December 11, 2012, 05:33:01 PM »
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Interesting question Guy. I just did a quick check for the past 3 years - right about 25% of my sales (give or take) go on an Arca Swiss or Cambo Technical Camera for landscape or architectural use. In a lot of these cases, a medium format camera is also deployed at times. So conversely, that means about 75% of my sales are going on a medium format camera and/or a large format camera (view camera for studio use).

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

What are your year totals per year for new MF backs?
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #246 on: December 11, 2012, 05:35:08 PM »
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Now like I said earlier there are downsides too with CMOS we lose those ISO 35 and 50 settings since they raise the floor on ISO and for a guy shooting water ISO is a stop to fast even with ND filters and that is not always a good thing.
I guess there is nothing in CMOS that can prevent you from having ISO25 or ISO50 if so you want to design your sensor... Pentax K5 (APC-S) has nominal ISO80 (which is ISO70 based on sensor saturation approach as used by DxOMark)... tiny sensor cameras like P&S Canon S100 has nominal ISO80 (which is ISO63 based on sensor saturation approach as used by DxOMark)... and those are not fake, extended ISOs...
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #247 on: December 11, 2012, 05:39:00 PM »
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One other thing is if everything is CMOS than do we lose some identity between formats.
foveon is CMOS... a very much different identity... and if Fuji can even make an distinct identity for itself by placing a little different bayer pattern on top of its otherwise regular CMOS sensor.
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #248 on: December 11, 2012, 05:54:21 PM »
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Much much much slower

This one I just dont't get. 

I can understand the non-technical folks getting confused about the (non) differences between CMOS and CCD sensors.

What I don't understand is this notion that you need a medium format back to take your time.  That's just ridiculous.

You want to slow down and that's really important to you ... But you pick up a Nikon and suddenly you can't help yourself?
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Gigi
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« Reply #249 on: December 11, 2012, 06:03:00 PM »
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FWIW, I'd like to pick up on Torger's ideas - that of a simpler, lower cost back that is taylored for a market which could/can does exist, but might be under the radar screen of the MFDB makers. Its a good idea, and one that has a lot of precedents in many industries, and it should be given some room to grow.

As to what such a back should have, I'm not sure. His suggestions of 48x36 and 6 um pixel size are good ones (gee - just the sizes on my Leaf AFI II7 back) along with the rotating sensor (a great feature). In fact, why not take the Leaf back, don't modernize it but rather aim to find ways to meet an attractive cost point? Opening up the middleof the MFD (or even the bottom) to more users is a good business strategy.

Torger has some company in his sense of a small hobbyist niche. Maybe there are more of us out there.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 05:57:14 AM by Geoffreyg » Logged

Geoff
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« Reply #250 on: December 11, 2012, 06:04:07 PM »
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What are your year totals per year for new MF backs?

What is your income for this past several years?
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #251 on: December 11, 2012, 06:23:52 PM »
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What are your year totals per year for new MF backs?

What is your income for this past several years?


Fred - I have no interest in your yearly income. But I also have no interest in providing my annual sales numbers to you. I've already stuck my neck out providing a ratio of technical cameras to medium format cameras. Sine we're one of the largest medium format suppliers on the planet, I would only say our annual totals for new MF Backs are plenty enough to allow us to hire 5 additional staff members over the past 2 years (doubling our ranks).


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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FredBGG
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« Reply #252 on: December 11, 2012, 07:32:21 PM »
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Fred - I have no interest in your yearly income. But I also have no interest in providing my annual sales numbers to you. I've already stuck my neck out providing a ratio of technical cameras to medium format cameras. Sine we're one of the largest medium format suppliers on the planet, I would only say our annual totals for new MF Backs are plenty enough to allow us to hire 5 additional staff members over the past 2 years (doubling our ranks).


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Whoa....

I did not ask what your personal income was.  The thread was discussing market share. You were discussing numbers and percentages.... seems like a reasonable question seeing you did a quick check on the relative percentages of tech vs MFDB cameras
you'd have the numbers handy. I don't see how it would reveal your personal income in any way. Your company does more than just sell digital backs.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 07:57:30 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #253 on: December 11, 2012, 08:06:40 PM »
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Whoa....

I did not ask what your personal income was.  The thread was discussing market share. You were discussing numbers and percentages.... seems like a reasonable question seeing you did a quick check on the relative percentages of tech vs MFDB cameras
you'd have the numbers handy. I don't see how it would reveal your personal income in any way. Your company does more than just sell digital backs.


Fred -

Are you out of your flippin' mind?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
gerald.d
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« Reply #254 on: December 11, 2012, 08:41:27 PM »
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Fred -

Are you out of your flippin' mind?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

I don't think he's out of his mind at all.

The fact that dealers are so protective regarding the quantity of one specific product category that they sell is pretty illuminating.

Regardless. You've provided sufficient information already to work out a ballpark figure anyway.
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HarperPhotos
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« Reply #255 on: December 11, 2012, 08:59:47 PM »
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Hello,

My guess is the total sales of Phase/Leaf backs per year would be about 100 units world wide.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #256 on: December 11, 2012, 09:00:13 PM »
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I don't think he's out of his mind at all.

The fact that dealers are so protective regarding the quantity of one specific product category that they sell is pretty illuminating.

Regardless. You've provided sufficient information already to work out a ballpark figure anyway.


No, he is out of his mind.

The protection of our sales numbers is not illuminating of anything other than the fact we simply do not publicly discuss our sales figures. It is as simple as that. Especially on a public forum where real data and information is twisted into misinformation and personal agendas are so rampant. Further - I find the credibility and motivations of the requestor to be malicious in nature and function.

I provided no information for anyone to work out any ballpark on our sales figures. Someone wondered about the ratio of tech cameras to medium format cameras, in combination with digital back sales. In the spirit of the forum as a helpful place for photographers - I offered certain data, which has a value and is potentially sensitive. That's it.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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« Reply #257 on: December 11, 2012, 09:01:09 PM »
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Hello,

My guess is the total sales of Phase/Leaf backs per year would be about 100 units world wide.

Cheers

Simon



Thanks for proving my point Simon.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
gerald.d
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« Reply #258 on: December 11, 2012, 09:07:36 PM »
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No, he is out of his mind.

The protection of our sales numbers is not illuminating of anything other than the fact we simply do not publicly discuss our sales figures. It is as simple as that. Especially on a public forum where real data and information is twisted into misinformation and personal agendas are so rampant. Further - I find the credibility and motivations of the requestor to be malicious in nature and function.

I provided no information for anyone to work out any ballpark on our sales figures. Someone wondered about the ratio of tech cameras to medium format cameras, in combination with digital back sales. In the spirit of the forum as a helpful place for photographers - I offered certain data, which has a value and is potentially sensitive. That's it.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

You provided staffing numbers. That, along with the assumption that it's a well run business, and the structure of your website, is sufficient to come up with a ballpark figure.

As an aside, the ad hominem attacks on members here by dealers is totally unnecessary.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #259 on: December 11, 2012, 09:15:08 PM »
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Fred -

Are you out of your flippin' mind?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration



No, he is out of his mind.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

I was going to leave it at that, but calling me out of my mind twice for simply asking a follow up question
how many new digital backs are sold is uncalled for. As I said before you had offered up some figures regarding MF Backs.
It was simply a follow up question to get an idea of the size of the market.

You and Doug could simply have stated that that it private. No big deal. Well actually I didn't even ask Doug.

What is your income for this past several years?

I think that that is not relevant. I would say that the equivalent question to ask a celebrity/portrait photographer
who he/she has photographed and how many shoots.


« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 11:24:30 PM by FredBGG » Logged
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