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Author Topic: The end of medium format ?  (Read 29187 times)
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #280 on: December 12, 2012, 09:20:13 AM »
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The most accurate way to gauge the numbers if you are going by payroll would be to assess the number of employees at the manufacturers themselves, not a dealer. Based on your numbers, the total sales figure for us would be substantially under represented. While we are known as medium format digital specialists, we sell a lot of other products. Even back when we sold less associative products, your numbers for compensation in a small company can be very skewed. The per employee compensation cost can be a good bit higher.
 
I don't think the numbers are any great mystery. In the healthiest years on record, perhaps 7,000, in recent years (like 2010), perhaps 4,000. From my experience, that is the ballpark range.

You guys can calculate percentages and such all you like, but you won't arrive at any closer or more accurate number than that, unless you focus on the manufacturer employment ranks, and even then, it's somewhat of a ballpark. Some manufacturers lay off in slow times, others hang onto employes until the good times. When you're not talking about thousands of employees, that is going to skew the numbers in a way you won't be aware of.

I would say - save yourself the trouble, just accept roughly 4,500 average currently (that may be a bit low, I don't know), and then do whatever you will with the numbers. I still don't really know what the objective is, once you think you know it.



This is really meaningless to know these numbers. They tell you nothing and more likely used in a negative way or worse OEMs use them for marketing reasons. The only people these matter too are the OEMs for internal use for hiring, there supply chain and budgeting reasons. All it tells us as photographers is that it is a niche market. I think we already know that. Do we really need to bring the format down to its knees. Look at this way there are REAL people behind this stuff that have family's and need jobs. If anything we as photosphere want to keep this industry in business as it gives us better products, support and hopefully lower costs. Besides all that BS its fun too shoot.

Now I will ask this stop taking the good post made here and turning it into subject to fit your desire to be negative . That's all I have seen in this whole thread. I say one thing it gets turned into something else to fill someone else's point. I ve seen this in almost every post to everyone's fine contributions. That is considered trolling by definition . It's annoying not fair and causes bad feelings among members. This thread has run its course IMHO and we should all move on. As a forum owner myself I can identify these types of threads a mile away and it just wastes good folks time. Frankly someone started a thread on improving MF I think that is far more productive to help shape its future. With that I'm out of this thread. Have a great day and Happy Holidays to everyone.
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sgilbert
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« Reply #281 on: December 12, 2012, 09:58:45 AM »
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This thread points out the problem often found in internet forums:  a poster says something -- or a series of somethings -- that makes you want to tune him or her out.  But the poster is relentless, and appears to have time to post the same or similar messages over and over again. 

What to do?  Some people can't seem to help themselves, and need to respond.  Others, perhaps feeling that their livelihood is being attacked, feel the need to correct what they see as unfair or inaccurate comments about their product or business.  And then the guy who started it all says people are treating him badly. 

It's really unfortunate, but I doubt it'll stop:  it's the internet.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #282 on: December 12, 2012, 10:24:37 AM »
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Hi,

Those numbers are quite relevant, at least if there is a need to develop a new sensor or ASIC. Development and tooling costs need to be split over all sensors produced.

Stefan Steib suggests the vendors should sit down and cooperate on development of a new CMOS sensor. In my view an excellent idea.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. I checked out your portfolio this morning. A lot of great work there!


This is really meaningless to know these numbers. They tell you nothing and more likely used in a negative way or worse OEMs use them for marketing reasons. The only people these matter too are the OEMs for internal use for hiring, there supply chain and budgeting reasons. All it tells us as photographers is that it is a niche market. I think we already know that. Do we really need to bring the format down to its knees. Look at this way there are REAL people behind this stuff that have family's and need jobs. If anything we as photosphere want to keep this industry in business as it gives us better products, support and hopefully lower costs. Besides all that BS its fun too shoot.

Now I will ask this stop taking the good post made here and turning it into subject to fit your desire to be negative . That's all I have seen in this whole thread. I say one thing it gets turned into something else to fill someone else's point. I ve seen this in almost every post to everyone's fine contributions. That is considered trolling by definition . It's annoying not fair and causes bad feelings among members. This thread has run its course IMHO and we should all move on. As a forum owner myself I can identify these types of threads a mile away and it just wastes good folks time. Frankly someone started a thread on improving MF I think that is far more productive to help shape its future. With that I'm out of this thread. Have a great day and Happy Holidays to everyone.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 10:38:32 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

design_freak
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« Reply #283 on: December 12, 2012, 10:36:04 AM »
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This thread points out the problem often found in internet forums:  a poster says something -- or a series of somethings -- that makes you want to tune him or her out.  But the poster is relentless, and appears to have time to post the same or similar messages over and over again. 

What to do?  Some people can't seem to help themselves, and need to respond.  Others, perhaps feeling that their livelihood is being attacked, feel the need to correct what they see as unfair or inaccurate comments about their product or business.  And then the guy who started it all says people are treating him badly. 

It's really unfortunate, but I doubt it'll stop:  it's the internet.

I do not recall anyone in this thread has treated me badly  Roll Eyes
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DF

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design_freak
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« Reply #284 on: December 12, 2012, 10:37:39 AM »
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Hi,

Those numbers are quite relevant, at least if there is a need to develop a new sensor or ASIC. Development and tooling costs need to be split over all sensor produced.

Stefan Steib suggests the vendors should sit down and cooperate on development of a new CMOS sensor. In my view an excellent idea.

Best regards
Erik



Of course, it's a good idea!!!
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Best regards,
DF

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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #285 on: December 12, 2012, 10:56:54 AM »
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Hi,

Those numbers are quite relevant, at least if there is a need to develop a new sensor or ASIC. Development and tooling costs need to be split over all sensors produced.

Stefan Steib suggests the vendors should sit down and cooperate on development of a new CMOS sensor. In my view an excellent idea.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. I checked out your portfolio this morning. A lot of great work there!



Yes and what I meant by internal needs. OEMs need to know what use case a new sensor and such would do for them in the market. This I do agree with but for us as Photographers they have no real value. I do agree with Stefans comment as well. Guess my big question on CMOS is what in the end would it bring us, but thats a another thread with a lot of questions to consider.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #286 on: December 12, 2012, 12:53:21 PM »
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I really don't understand why such a strong stance against knowing the sales or production numbers of MFD.
Being transparent about the numbers (and I'm talking about the manufacturers, not dealer numbers) would give
the market more certainty. As the image quality between the formats has become pretty much equivalent
and the massive price advantage of 35mm DSLR I think that doubts about the longevity of MFD don't work in favor
of MFD sales. The uncertainty surrounding the numbers and the ever changing ownership of MF companies, mergers,
re-branding etc along with the demise of several MF companies and brands does not help in making a decision to by a very expensive camera.
Even more so if long term financing is needed to make the purchase feasible for many photographers.

Numbers don't have to be huge. Even small numbers with the appropriate company structure would be more reassuring
than no information.

It takes very little to tip a buyers choice towards something like a D800 vs MF. Lack of information is one of them.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #287 on: December 12, 2012, 01:08:38 PM »
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Fred!
Seriously, enough already!

You have some really good knowledge around 35mm and large format film and I thank you for sharing that, but this relentless trolling around MFDB is just that, trolling.

The problem is lots of good data is getting buried under your prolific posts which are always slanted against medium format digital. I understand that you had a bad experience with medium format at one point but I don't think that gives you the right to continually attack the idea of medium format, please Fred move on.

I have been shooting Hasselblad (and before that Imacon) digital backs for well over a decade now, and I plan on shooting with them for a while yet (and yes I have a D800 and a 5D2).  I think that qualifies me to comment on Hasselblad threads and I do, but I tend to avoid commenting on say a Phase One thread as I don't know the product, if I do make a stupid comment Doug or Steve will advise Smiley.

My point is do you feel you have a depth of experience in medium format that leaves you qualified to make these continuous attacks or are you just an angry man with an agenda?

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FredBGG
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« Reply #288 on: December 12, 2012, 01:27:07 PM »
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Fred!
Seriously, enough already!

You have some really good knowledge around 35mm and large format film and I thank you for sharing that, but this relentless trolling around MFDB is just that, trolling.

The problem is lots of good data is getting buried under your prolific posts which are always slanted against medium format digital. I understand that you had a bad experience with medium format at one point but I don't think that gives you the right to continually attack the idea of medium format, please Fred move on.

I have been shooting Hasselblad (and before that Imacon) digital backs for well over a decade now, and I plan on shooting with them for a while yet (and yes I have a D800 and a 5D2).  I think that qualifies me to comment on Hasselblad threads and I do, but I tend to avoid commenting on say a Phase One thread as I don't know the product, if I do make a stupid comment Doug or Steve will advise Smiley.

My point is do you feel you have a depth of experience in medium format that leaves you qualified to make these continuous attacks or are you just an angry man with an agenda?



For your information I have been a photographer for 30 years, internationally publishes, work daily with the a-list and have owned two Phase One Digital cameras, many lenses for them and beta tested for several high end imaging apps. I have also used color suites that cost the production companies I sometimes work for $1,200 an hour. this being one of them http://www.efilm.com/inside-efilm/slideshow
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Sheldon N
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« Reply #289 on: December 12, 2012, 01:32:53 PM »
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For your information I have been a photographer for 30 years, internationally publishes, work daily with the a-list and have owned two Phase One Digital cameras, many lenses for them and beta tested for several high end imaging apps. I have also used color suites that cost the production companies I sometimes work for $1,200 an hour. this being one of them http://www.efilm.com/inside-efilm/slideshow

Well that sounds like a much better use of your time than trolling the medium format threads.

As an outside observer in this thread (and someone who has owned both MFDB and 35mm gear and settled on 35mm gear) I tend to agree with Nick-T's post above.
The forum would be well served if you shared your knowledge in other threads, and didn't continually strive to create controversy in every medium format thread that came up.
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Gigi
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« Reply #290 on: December 12, 2012, 02:28:48 PM »
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Well that sounds like a much better use of your time than trolling the medium format threads.

As an outside observer in this thread (and someone who has owned both MFDB and 35mm gear and settled on 35mm gear) I tend to agree with Nick-T's post above.
The forum would be well served if you shared your knowledge in other threads, and didn't continually strive to create controversy in every medium format thread that came up.

+1
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Geoff
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« Reply #291 on: December 12, 2012, 02:52:40 PM »
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Nick!!
Did you every time  belittle people and their positions? Nick, it's time to put long pants.
Chill out and Collect power, join the new thread. Let's talk about the future  Smiley
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DF

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Alan W George
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« Reply #292 on: December 12, 2012, 03:58:41 PM »
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Troll (Internet)

In Internet slang, a troll ( /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
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Alan W George
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« Reply #293 on: December 12, 2012, 04:24:39 PM »
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The Pathology of Trolls --> http://webupon.com/web-talk/the-pathology-of-trolls/
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #294 on: December 12, 2012, 07:25:11 PM »
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For your information I have been a photographer for 30 years, internationally publishes,

And what will you do next year Fred?  Arguing on the forums isn't a profession (even if you do it full time)  - no one pays you for it.   It has no value and no style points are awarded.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #295 on: December 12, 2012, 09:36:48 PM »
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And what will you do next year Fred?  Arguing on the forums isn't a profession (even if you do it full time)  - no one pays you for it.   It has no value and no style points are awarded.


"And what will you do next year Fred?".... well lost of kitesurfing for starters... strapless and plenty of big surf...
"No one pays me for it".... not hear for the money Wink
"It has no value and no style points are awarded." not hear for some award...

"Arguing on the forums isn't a profession" I think you read my posts to LOUD Wink
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gerald.d
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« Reply #296 on: December 12, 2012, 10:05:24 PM »
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Troll (Internet)

In Internet slang, a troll ( /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Which, of course, describes precisely your motivation and behaviour in making that post in this thread.
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design_freak
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« Reply #297 on: December 13, 2012, 04:51:26 AM »
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This thread turned into a psychology tutorial!?  Huh
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DF

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JoeKitchen
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« Reply #298 on: December 13, 2012, 05:25:25 AM »
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I do believe it is time for LuLa to close this discussion. 
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design_freak
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« Reply #299 on: December 13, 2012, 05:48:46 AM »
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I do believe it is time for LuLa to close this discussion. 

I agree
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DF

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