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Author Topic: why and when does a photographer use Capture One instead of Lightroom  (Read 6497 times)
Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 05:19:08 PM »
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Jean,  that is what I mean. it just does things that defy logic. Why does it make a redundat file? Actually I don't want to know why. It simply shouldn't. You are not alone at all. Plenty people to this day STILL love how there was none of this to deal with. I don't see how it ISN'T enlightening to be free of it all. I guess some really don't know what they don't know :-)

Doug_
Yes, I guess 10 years ago, MAC's were a bit more mainstream. So was my velvia on a Sinar.
If you look at users in the past 4 years you will see the PC imaging market far outweighs MAC users in many large sectors of the image making photographic including LR users(If that is a some gauge).
It took a spike in the 64bit win7 OS more recently as well. I know all the digitcarts come with MAc G's. Perhaps re evaluation of market is in need.


I'm still wanting to hear if a different version is something C1 has thought of. Think of it this way. If this new direction is totally right. Then make the ProLite version as DB standard without all the Sessions and Catlaog etc. So anyone wanting to upgrade with V7 or future have to pay, and all DB owners with free updates get the ProLite.  It already is out of the spectrum of what a DB purchaser should expect. The developer, not a forced DAM "sollution".
thoughts?
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MrSmith
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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 05:22:36 PM »
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You could ask the opposite question. Why use lightroom instead of capture 1?
I have no need for a searchable keyworded archive database and despite having a free copy of Lightroom I haven't even bothered to install it.
Capture 1 is easy to use once you got over the learning curve bump between 3 and 4 and produces great files, I can't see the point in changing tethering/processing software when it does everything I need (and a load of other stuff I don't need)
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craigwashburn
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 05:33:26 PM »
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But, that's the thing. I create a folder specific for the job. For the example sake, name it Doug Portrait. When I create the session, it prompts you for the name and location. If I select the folder where the images are (Doug Portrait), it will create another folder inside Doug Portrait. Now I have: "Doug Portrait - Doug Portrait - all the files" instead of "Doug Portrait - all the files"

The instructor said a way that's possible without having the extra folder (involved dragging files around as well), but I don't remember how.

The elegant method (and common sense) would be to create the session and let you pick the folder or create a new one if you need.


You don't need to create the main folder of the session.  C1 handles it.  Let's say you have a folder called /jobs/   In the new session dialog you point C1 to that folder (it will remember it for next time), call the session "Doug Portrait" and it creates /jobs/Doug Portrait/Captures and the other folders like Selects, Output, Trash etc.  Then you drop your images in from wherever they are stored.

I find operating in sessions works best for me.  Fiddled with the catalog in 7, but don't really see a use for it in my work that tends to be project based. 

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tho_mas
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 05:49:50 PM »
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I love C1 for it's "analogue" look. Period.

But the catalogue feature is probably the most silly idea Phase One could have come up with.
Due to C1's color management system it will NEVER work as expected (because technically it CAN NOT work).
I guess we will see hundreds (or thousands) of users who will complain... "my processed TIFs look different in C1 than in Photoshop" ... or: "C1 doesn't show my Photoshop adjustments" ... or: "in C1 my TIFs are desaturated" or so ...

"The spirits that I called up" ... (if this is the accurate translation for the German saying: "Die Geister die ich rief.")

I'm with "Phil Indeblanc" ... C1 should focus on fast workflow and RAW processing. All the latest additions to the software are pretty much useless (except - of course - the new engine, which is simply great. Really great!).

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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 06:25:01 PM »
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I'm with "Phil Indeblanc"
-tho mas.

So is MrSmith and Craig for the most part. They are more willing to ignore parts and be optimistic :-)

Deep down inside, so is Doug :-)


regarding the folder creation...It shouldn't try and think for you to create it what it thinks it needs.

to further clarify...
For the re evaluation, I am refering to overall consideration of market. Digitech carts should still roll out with MACs  unless requested (I don't know of any that provides a PC).
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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 06:36:31 PM »
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...call the session "Doug Portrait" and it creates /jobs/Doug Portrait/Captures and the other folders like Selects, Output, Trash etc.  Then you drop your images in from wherever they are stored.

...

Craig, you outlined how it works. I don't understand how it seems logic to create a folder then C1 creates another folder and then I drag the images to the folder created by C1. How about doing it the logical way: create a folder and then C1 uses that folder instead of creating another one. And I'm not saying just do it my way. Just make it an option: create a folder or don't create folder (just like it gives you the option to use tethered or untethered).

The way it works now it's the approach as if somebody shoots tethered with a back. Well, the Pro version is aimed at professionals that use a variety of camera systems.
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Valentin
jeanvalentin
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 06:40:50 PM »
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You could ask the opposite question. Why use lightroom instead of capture 1?...

It all depends on what type of photography you do. For commercial/fashion work, C1 has features that makes your life easier. For event work (weddings), LR has a MUCH better workflow. And until v7 (when they improved the algorithm), LR had much better highlight recovery. I don't use LR because it uses a catalog, I use it because it's a breeze to use for event work. Also, C1 was notorious for not getting updates that supported the new cameras out in time.

No matter how much I customized C1 interface, I fly through a job when using LR (I used to fly through a job prior to v4).
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Valentin
tho_mas
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2012, 06:59:57 PM »
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Deep down inside, so is Doug :-)
yes, I know ;-)

regarding the folder creation...It shouldn't try and think for you to create it what it thinks it needs.
not sure what you are referring to herewith (maybe due to language barriers). I have absolutely no trouble with sessions and the way C1 handles sessions and the respective folder creation. In fact I am absolutely familar with sessions and I've also adotped my archiving/back-up system to profit from C1's session struture. I like it. Or at least: I am accustomed to work with it.
Sessions have always been a fundamental part of C1 ... also in V3. Maybe you have not noticed you are working in a session ... but in fact you always did exactly that.

I think Phase should be proud of their C1 software. They should focus on their own strengths (RAW handling, color, color editor, smoothness, "film look", tethering...). I absolutely do NOT think they should copy Lightroom ... because there is absolutely NO way they will win the race.
But lately I am under the impression they try exactly that... unfortunately.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 07:08:02 PM by tho_mas » Logged
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 06:53:51 AM »
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Basically I never had any strange color problems with C1, ever. While LR4 is really good and has finally a RAW engine that is very good, I still have the on and off color cast issues that I never see with C1.

Until C1 v7, LR4 had two major features that where not there or in bad shape, that was Lens calibration and highlight recovery. With C1 v7 the highlight recovery is almost at the same level as LR4 and they included a lot of lenses with proper distortion removal, etc.

The one thing I truly miss in LR4 is a proper keystone correction, this is something that I use a lot in C1 v7.

Furthermore I like the detail color selection for manipulation more than the general selection you can do in LR4, plus it seems C1 lets me go more "wild" with how much I tweak colors.

What I also like in C1 are the Levels tools where I can "crop" the not used areas in a histogram. Similar thing can be done in LR4, but not in the same easy way I think.

What C1 had missing until v7 was DAM. Although it has now a catalogue, it is nothing what LR4 has. LR4 is just way better because it had that implemented since the first version. Easy tagging of keywords, maps, etc. This is just something that I utterly miss in C1 and where I do make heavy use of sidecar files to sync data from LR4 to C1 before I develop the RAW files in C1.

Although PhaseOne has a stand alone DAM tool called MediaPro, I never really liked it.

BTW, both have a huge gap in any good documentation. There are a lot of things in both programs that are just not or not enough documented in their "documentation".

Hi Gullevek,

Can you expand on this a little...

'What C1 had missing until v7 was DAM. Although it has now a catalogue, it is nothing what LR4 has'

What do you feel we are missing?  I can mention of course that we can do many things in a Catalog that lightroom cannot do.  For example, Shared Catalogs, Adjusting Images that are 'offline' and working with multiple catalogs at once.  Or just the simple fact that you don't have to relaunch the application, simply to switch to another catalog!

Documentation-wise, incase you haven't seen it, we have...

www.help.phaseone.com

http://www.youtube.com/user/PhaseOneDK?feature=results_main

http://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportMain.aspx

David
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 12:08:31 PM by David Grover / Phase One » Logged

David Grover
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craigwashburn
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2012, 05:36:45 PM »
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Craig, you outlined how it works. I don't understand how it seems logic to create a folder then C1 creates another folder and then I drag the images to the folder created by C1. How about doing it the logical way: create a folder and then C1 uses that folder instead of creating another one. And I'm not saying just do it my way. Just make it an option: create a folder or don't create folder (just like it gives you the option to use tethered or untethered).

The way it works now it's the approach as if somebody shoots tethered with a back. Well, the Pro version is aimed at professionals that use a variety of camera systems.


Perhaps as a long time user I'm simply used to thinking of jobs that go in this order:  Create the project (session), add images to the session, work on them, process and then work on the output in photoshop. 

In a project oriented environment like many working photographers operate, this makes perfect sense because it tends to keep things organized by client/job and in one place, making backup and portability a cinch.

I don't know enough about the cataloging feature to say whether or not it addresses the limitations of sessions adequately, but I'm pretty satisfied with the simple organization sessions provide.

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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2012, 05:44:30 PM »
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Perhaps as a long time user I'm simply used to thinking of jobs that go in this order:  Create the project (session), add images to the session, work on them, process and then work on the output in photoshop.  ...




Again, my problem is not the project approach. Is the extra step involved: moving images from a place on your hard drive inside the session folder. In the create session window, it should have another check mark/drop down: use current location (of the images) or create a new folder.

If you are importing from a card or shooting tethered, creating the folder makes sense. If you are coming from a job and copied your images on your hard drive, creating an extra folder doesn't make sense.

I too work with the way it is because I don't have a choice, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever the way it is setup. I doubt I'm the only one that thinks that and I wish the users would send feedback to Phase. I'm sure this is a carryover from their backs when most people shot tethered (and it makes sense that way). The problem is that this is the Pro version which is supposed to cater to many types of users, not just ones that shoot tethered.
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Valentin
craigwashburn
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2012, 06:21:06 PM »
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Again, my problem is not the project approach. Is the extra step involved: moving images from a place on your hard drive inside the session folder. In the create session window, it should have another check mark/drop down: use current location (of the images) or create a new folder.

If you are importing from a card or shooting tethered, creating the folder makes sense. If you are coming from a job and copied your images on your hard drive, creating an extra folder doesn't make sense.

I too work with the way it is because I don't have a choice, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever the way it is setup. I doubt I'm the only one that thinks that and I wish the users would send feedback to Phase. I'm sure this is a carryover from their backs when most people shot tethered (and it makes sense that way). The problem is that this is the Pro version which is supposed to cater to many types of users, not just ones that shoot tethered.


Where do your images originally come from if not from card (or external hard drive, etc) or tethered?  I always create a session before doing anything and then drop the take, wherever it came from, directly into Captures.  If you want to avoid this for some reason, you can create a "session favorite" (in the library tab) that points to your folder(s) of images.

Many project-oriented software work this way.  Video editing comes to mind... you create the project, then add the assets.


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jeanvalentin
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2012, 06:27:53 PM »
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Where do your images originally come from if not from card (or external hard drive, etc) or tethered?....



They do come from cards originally. I just don't import them via C1. I have a multi-card reader and download images on my hard drive. Since I use both LR and C1, I don't want to create sessions if I don't end up using C1 for a particular job. That creates a problem since C1 creates a folder when you use sessions. If you ONLY use C1, then yes, you can create the session first and then dump the images inside the folder (although, that's a workaround not an elegant way of doing things since I'm forced to start C1 just to create a damn folder).
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Valentin
Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2012, 11:28:24 PM »
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They do come from cards originally. I just don't import them via C1. I have a multi-card reader and download images on my hard drive. Since I use both LR and C1, I don't want to create sessions if I don't end up using C1 for a particular job. That creates a problem since C1 creates a folder when you use sessions. If you ONLY use C1, then yes, you can create the session first and then dump the images inside the folder (although, that's a workaround not an elegant way of doing things since I'm forced to start C1 just to create a damn folder).

DING DING DING!!! Exactly!!

 I certainly don't use the raw dev to import images. I would recommend it for someone just starting out who just purchased their $1200 Costco DSLR with  3 light camera kit. It would be a good start to rely on one app for all image related task. I recommend a 1TB NAS for them for back up etc as well.
BUT certainly not for anyone taking full control of their work, or work from multiple cards and shooters. Come on! Raw Dev to ingest?  ( I tried even LightRoom for a bit, which looks intuitive, but no thanks)  Maybe for the hobbiest or the occasional fine artist that wants to make a cup of drip coffee while doing it..
_Culling ... ingesting is the job of a FAST DAM app that sees all files with a bunch of its data clearly with number of features to organize. tag metadata, move around folders.... PERIOD. "

OFTEN, I have a 32GB card that I have more than one client shoot in a day, and I don't use ONE shiny idealistic Session folder.  I have 3 or 4, and I want the files in their specific folders...With ACDSee you can command such demands! By date, by individual selection to multiple locations. That's FLEXIBILITY!  Thats cuz its a DAM DAM! I can't really rave about the Raw dev it comes with. But guess what? You can buy just the manager that DOESN'T come with the raw. Hmm what a novel idea! Separate apps for different users. Separate the Raw/Dev portion from the Manage....genius!

" Today we'll discuss how you can use Capture One to do all your photographic steps as you transfer, process,  and archive All your data within one applications ...if you use it the right way..." Really Peter? :-) BTW, I love Peter, and his work is just bliss. Besides, a great voice for instruction that I've enjoyed over the years!
He has a great blog as well....Really amazing chap. Maybe in half effort manner you can do everything in C1, but Why would you?! Why?! Perhaps you're a digitech? OK, fantastic. You go!

What makes a professional a professional is having invested in the right tools for the right job. Use DAM to organize and Developer to process RAW.
Would you use a 1-2/ps frame camera for a fast paced model shoot with NO final image direction? NO! Would you use a point and shoot for Cartiers next ad? No!
Why would you Catalog your image library and LOCK in all your images/image data to one program? You wouldn't. And yes, C1 lets you use Sessions...great.....At least make it user friendly by being simple. Stop making unnecessary folders!
.....You say this is common an many raw developers?  Would you say it is common for Major cataloging houses, Agencies, publications, editors, and studios use a DAM application? Yes or no? Thank you!

 I had a job I developed today in C1 and it just does a BEAUTIFUL processing job....come on guys, this is torture.
Give the digitechs thier version since you trained the hell out of them on how to think, but give the rest of the people a choice to be free. As free as 3.7.10 is enough for me.

Quote
In a project oriented environment like many working photographers operate, this makes perfect sense because it tends to keep things organized by client/job and in one place, making backup and portability a cinch.
_Why would C1 decide when that folder is made? Just because I shoot into it or transfer into it via C1? C1 is not my only app on a clients job. (This is what I mean tho-mas)

Quote
I always create a session before doing anything and then drop the take, wherever it came from, directly into Captures.
_You create a session before getting all the info, which often will have samples of things they like, or the job focus?

Quote
If you want to avoid this for some reason, you can create a "session favorite" (in the library tab) that points to your folder(s) of images.
_I'm gonna have to look at this again, as I remember using it at some point.

Quote
Many project-oriented software work this way.  Video editing comes to mind... you create the project, then add the assets.
_Can you make a list besides "many"? thanks.

As far as clients folders....
I already have the clients folder created with their sample images they forward and have discussions for the project before I shoot.  As I said, I understand the 1 time it is good when the Digitech will create this folder to hand off. Is that all C1's big picture approach is all about?
How hard is it for a digitech to do without that? Not hard at all. It can be done without the steps. It would keep things from making a mess.  Get rid of this and we can ignore Sessions and Catalog with better ease. Since most people 99.9% try to anyway.
 I highly recommend C1 to prompt us if we want it to create C1/Cache/Settings subfolders to areas we simply browse. I have NO intention of dong anything in a folder I browsed in. If Sessions is so simple and just like a SysFolder browser, then let me do just that without added files to clean after.

(take the above in a fun tone, but the reality is there.)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 11:42:05 PM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2012, 11:59:49 PM »
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Hi,

My take on the issue is that Lightroom is a workflow solution while Capture One used to be a raw converter. I'm not really sure where Capture One is going.

I know that Luminous landscape has a tutorial video about Capture One, I have not bought it as I decided not to use Capture One. The reason I don't use C1 is not because there is anything wrong with C1, but that I'm in the LR camp, since LR1.0 Beta 3.

I would strongly suggest you buy the LuLa video, they used to be excellent. I'm pretty sure that C1 is evolving into a workflow solution, and I'm pretty sure that the LuLa video would give you much more information than playing with a demo for two months.

Best regards
Erik

Since entering the realm of digital photography I've always used Lightroom - I shoot Canon full frame DSLR. Is there a difference or advantage to using Capture One rather than Lightroom?
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Schewe
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« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2012, 01:34:03 AM »
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I would strongly suggest you buy the LuLa video, they used to be excellent. I'm pretty sure that C1 is evolving into a workflow solution, and I'm pretty sure that the LuLa video would give you much more information than playing with a demo for two months.

As it relates to C1 7.x, I'm not so sure...the C1 LuLa vids are dated (pre 6 as I recall, they came out just before C1 6 was released–which caused a bit of, uh, discontent in certain camps). The LR 4.x vids are indeed current (and useful for learning LR 4.x)...

I've not yet downloaded C1 7.x because, well, I haven't had the time nor inclination (prolly wait till C1 7.2/3 because I'm "chicken"). I really only use C1 for tethering to my 645 with IQ 180 camera...

So, I can't really comment on C1 7.x's asset management aspects–I'm willing to accept (and believe) that C1 7.x has substantially improved a lot of aspects of IQ (image quality) because, well, Phase One had to (due to the bar being raised by LR 4.x/ACR 7.x).

That's the part I really like (and encourage) is the drive to improve the processing of raw to rendered images–I do wish C1 would stay more current on DNG output versions though. The whole lossy DNG seems to have passed C1 7 by.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2012, 03:06:11 AM »
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_Why would C1 decide when that folder is made? Just because I shoot into it or transfer into it via C1? C1 is not my only app on a clients job. (This is what I mean tho-mas)
okay, I've got it.
Within a session you can assign ANY folder on your system (either on an internal or external drive) as "capture" folder, as "selects" folder, as "trash" folder and as "output" folder. Likewise you can have hundreds of sessions (think of "projects"/"shooting sessions") and assign for instance the very same "output" folder to all that sessions so that all your exports go into this "global" export folder.
In the "Library" you can select ANY folder on your system and make it a session "favorite" ... which is basically a "capture" folder in an untethered session (or to keep it more simple: it's simply the folder your captures reside in ... either way where they come from). Of course you can make several (capture-) folders session favorites so that you can work on captures from different locations (actually you don't even have to make it a "favorite" - you can just point to the respective folder in C1's library. But making a folder a "favorite" will create a link in C1's library under "Session Favorites" so that you will easily find the respective folder in this list when you re-open the session).
You can also move and/or copy captures from one session to another in C1's library ...
You can also create new folders in C1's library and move captures into it.

So basically you can choose your workflow by your liking. You don't have to import through C1's import tool neither you have to use the folders C1 creates automatically.
The only thing you have to live with is that C1 is creating at least 3 folders when you make a new session by default: "trash", "select" and "output" (and a "capture" folder in case of creating a "tethered" session). But again, you don't have to use these folders. And if you don't use them you can also delete them if you like to. C1 will then display a warning that the respective folders are missing (a triangle with an exclamation mark - see attachment)... but you can ignore this warning.
This way you work around the way C1 is designed ... but it's easily doable.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 03:17:18 AM by tho_mas » Logged
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