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Author Topic: Alpa FPS review  (Read 4132 times)
gerald.d
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« on: December 08, 2012, 09:54:00 PM »
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Hi. Started reading this and then...

In what way was the HCam a failure?

Kind regards,

Gerald.

/edit

Also, any chance of sharing some of those fully shifted images with the 24 TSE II? I've done a series of test shots with it on the HCam and an IQ180 and find it quite soft towards the edges, with physical vignetting starting at around 6mm of shift (half of what it can do)

No denying though that the FPS is a great tool.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 10:11:09 PM by gerald.d » Logged
Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 04:53:07 AM »
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Dear Mr. Dubovoy

".......I should mention that Hartblei tried to produce a similar "universal" Medium Format camera some time ago, but the effort was a failure....."

Interesting, that as you probably never used one, you give such a bold and unproofed statement. We are selling the HCam now since 3 years, there are 3 versions of the camera, we have improved many details and a version HCam-B2 is in the making,  a lot of successful Architecture and other photographers worldwide are using it. So as Gerald Donovan- who is one of these successful users - already asked - how do you define failure ? Could you please elaborate on this ?

Overall, I welcome the move of Alpa to do the same(or very similar - for differences look at www.hcam.de) thing that we do, your argumentation is as valid for the HCam as you did for the Alpa. So it seems some need a great name to understand what the facts are. As e.g. "real"wideangles are now nearly unusable on MF Viewcameras with 60 Mpix and up the need for an alternative concept was apparent.
I really wondered why it took so long that others approved this.

In short - it is good the market leader Alpa also does now what we have started, it shows the concept is right and now I wish more shall come.
May the market tell whom they will follow. I am just sure it will not be the "old mechanical stuff" and if Digital Medium Format shall survive there needs to be support, new concepts and phantasy from all actors and all makers in this range.

Greetings from Germany

Stefan
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 05:47:53 AM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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Vincen77o
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 08:49:13 AM »
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Quote
I trust you will agree that the image on the bottom is sharper and shows finer detail.

Perhaps you have the images the wrong way round, but to my eyes they are as sharp as each other, but the top (Copal Shutter) image has more detail, eg: the chrome in the top right corner.
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Pete
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2012, 09:22:14 AM »
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Regarding the sharpness comparisation.

I took both images, overlayed them (without any rotation, scale, etc.) in difference mode for best alignment and compared several regions where I panned one image so the difference at the examined area was minimized.

After some on/off switching of layers at 400-1600% and observation of the whole picture I say this:

-Sharpness in both images is identical. You can observe this very good especially on the edge of the big letters.

-The Focal plane shutter image has a slightly, minuscule better light quality to it. As a consequence, more of the fine glints in the letters reflect back, making this image indeed a bit more pleasing, if I stare careful enough. Also reflections in other image parts look nicer.

Best regards



Quote
You will need a good monitor to look at these two images, particularly because things are not quite as clear with a JPEG, but if you look carefully at the edges of the numbers, at the fine textures and at the fine "pebble like" finish of the background in the license plate I trust you will agree that the image on the bottom is sharper and shows finer detail.
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 10:59:39 AM »
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Hi. Started reading this and then...

In what way was the HCam a failure?

Kind regards,

Gerald.


First thing that jumped out of me too. Especially when provided with a link that said nothing of the sort. 
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riclib
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 11:10:42 AM »
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I've had my HCAM for years and it never failed. I actually also have an Alpa STC and never bothered getting anything shorter than 48mm for it, I'm really well served with the hartblei for that.

Calling a camera with such an original design that has been the workhorse for wide angle photography when compared to a new camera that is basically a luxury copy missing a through the lens viewfinder and unproven in the field is not fair. When I saw they removed the viewfinder I though they'd have made a much more compact version.

I'd much rather have something smaller that interacted with my existing ALPA stuff than one that is going to make me have to buy into a whole new system.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 11:32:49 AM »
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Hi,

Two questions come to mind:

1) In what sense is the Hartblei a failure. I presume they wouldn't be around if they failed?

2) If Copal is the major supplier of central shutters and they stop making them, who will supply central shutters?

I'm somewhat surprised about the shutter being vibration free. I thought shutter related vibration was a problem on Maimiyas? Anyway, nice to hear that Mamiya does good business on FP shutters!

I wish both Alpa and Hartblei well, nice to have companies who are thinking out of the box!

Best regards
Erik


Hi. Started reading this and then...

In what way was the HCam a failure?

Kind regards,

Gerald.

/edit

Also, any chance of sharing some of those fully shifted images with the 24 TSE II? I've done a series of test shots with it on the HCam and an IQ180 and find it quite soft towards the edges, with physical vignetting starting at around 6mm of shift (half of what it can do)

No denying though that the FPS is a great tool.
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 12:10:48 PM »
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Hi Eric-

I can´t speak for Alpa but I suspect they solved this very similar like we did:

Our housing is made of one massive 40 mm strong milled aluminium plate, the minimum material thickness anywhere is not less than 5mm- more like 7-8mm and the frame is  a cm or more.
Around the shutter we have a rubber block on which the shutter itself is mounted. Around the shutter inside the housing there are metal webs
giving additional stability. The material Mix of the aluminium,the rubber and the very low actually moving mass of the M645 DF shutter are
leading to a non vibrating shutter release. You can put the fingertips on the camera when releasing and if you would not hear it, you would have a hard time to tell if the
shutter is released or not.

I think the Mamiya Body is simply not stable enough to do the same wave elimination, AND - they still have a mirror to move away.
Actually shooting out of hand does the next thing, a hand does not eliminate these movements as much as a solid tripod.
And finally , although most people know they should use mirror up........ they don´t .

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 07:30:01 AM »
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Regarding the comment, "... that Hartblei tried to produce a similar "universal" Medium Format camera some time ago, but the effort was a failure," I suspect that this is again another case of Mr. Dubovoy making an over the top statement.  The review of the Hartblei camera that is linked was by Michael and it would be most useful to hear from him regarding this quote, as that review implies nothing of the sort.  We've already heard from Stefan Steib on this point and I just think this is really poor journalism to put unsubstantiated statements in a review without some justification.  Maybe Mr. Dubovoy believes it to be a failure but why?  Disappointing to say the least.

Alan
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dubomac
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 12:43:13 PM »
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To Stefan and everyone else on this forum thread:

My deep apologies for a typo.  After I mentioned the Hartblei camera, I had another paragraph talking about something else that was a failure.  When I deleted it, unfortunately some of the words remained and I did not notice that this ended up with the implication that the Hartblei camera was a failure.  The typo has been removed.
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 12:58:57 PM »
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Dear Mr. Dubovoy

Thanks for removing the "failure". What makes me still wondering is why did we "try to produce such a camera" ?

WE ARE building such a camera since 3 years and sell it to customers worldwide, who use this for their customers like Mercedes Benz, BMW, AGIP, varioust Architects and many many more.

Here is a link -in german(Sorry) to an article in German Magazine Digit! where another customer- Studio Riess (one of the largest in the Munich area) describes his works with the HCam and our lenses - see here:

http://www.hcam.de/downloads/digit0411_riess.pdf

So I´d kindly ask to just remove this "TRY".......... why not writing "are producing such a camera since 3 years" ?

TIA
Stefan Steib - CEO Hartblei-HCam
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gerald.d
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 01:53:41 PM »
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To Stefan and everyone else on this forum thread:

My deep apologies for a typo.  After I mentioned the Hartblei camera, I had another paragraph talking about something else that was a failure.  When I deleted it, unfortunately some of the words remained and I did not notice that this ended up with the implication that the Hartblei camera was a failure.  The typo has been removed.


Glad we managed to clear that up. Well, as Stefan rightly points out, partially.

Out of interest, what was the "something else" that was a failure?
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gerald.d
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 02:06:59 PM »
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Due to the terrible internet connection where I am at the moment, I'm only now being able to watch the video, albeit in short chunks at a time.

With regards the challenges of shooting in portrait mode (10'50"), would it not be simpler to rotate the back mount through 90 degrees, or am I missing something obvious here?
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 03:46:39 PM »
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The revised language posted by Mr. Dubovoy is still intellectually dishonest in two ways.  As Mr. Steib points out and their website confirms, they are building a camera and not "trying" to do so.  The fact that the camera has been on the market for three years represents an accomplishment, NOT an attempt.  Secondly, the present language regarding the review of the Hartblei camera needs to be clarified to make it clear that Michael Reichman wrote the review as opposed to the language "...you can find our review of this device..."  The review in question does not speak of any other reviewer.  Now if Mr. Dubovoy has any experience at all with the Hartblei camera that should be clearly stated to the reader.  The current language implies this in a rather perjorative manner.  Surely some clear editorial thought needs to be exercised before posting a review of an interesting new product.

Alan
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michael
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 03:53:39 PM »
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I have now amended the wording appropriately.

Mark and I both apologize to Stephan and our readers for the error.

Michael
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 03:57:26 PM »
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Thank you Michael for making the changes!

Alan
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 04:09:34 PM »
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Thank you both very much. Appreciated ! I was sure this was just an error and not intention.
Again - I really wish Alpa´s FPS will be a success ! This will help us all to keep the Pro Photography with Medium format devices alive and kicking !
I would also be pleased if more companies take these proposals and try to give the market a new drive, new imagination and  new "I want´s" for us gearheads
that love our cameras .

This is such a small niche now, we all need to Cooperate, I had spoken with Alpa this summer and I knew what was going to come, and together with Thomas Weber, Ursula Capaul
and André Oldani we were speaking about future devellopments of medium format and about the leaf shutters and much more. I hope Hartblei/HCam and Alpa will do
a future cooperation on some areas and maybe this can help a new devellopment of interesting and powerful photographic devices.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 04:14:58 PM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 10:34:36 PM »
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Hi,

I'm much impressed by both cameras. I still feel that what is missing is a digital back with live view that works well enough.

Best regards
Erik

Thank you both very much. Appreciated ! I was sure this was just an error and not intention.
Again - I really wish Alpa´s FPS will be a success ! This will help us all to keep the Pro Photography with Medium format devices alive and kicking !
I would also be pleased if more companies take these proposals and try to give the market a new drive, new imagination and  new "I want´s" for us gearheads
that love our cameras .

This is such a small niche now, we all need to Cooperate, I had spoken with Alpa this summer and I knew what was going to come, and together with Thomas Weber, Ursula Capaul
and André Oldani we were speaking about future devellopments of medium format and about the leaf shutters and much more. I hope Hartblei/HCam and Alpa will do
a future cooperation on some areas and maybe this can help a new devellopment of interesting and powerful photographic devices.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2012, 02:36:51 AM »
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Erik

Yes MF needs new Backs with real Live View, may that be CMOS or anything else, but the actual status is not sufficient.

I made a proposal about this some time ago:
All the Back makers should get down to a round table and concentrate their forces for the devellopment of a large CMOS chip.
Think of it like the standardized Ford Cosworth 8 cylinder  machine in the Formula one in the 70 and 80 ties, this worked for nearly 16 years and
nobody could tell that during this time the races were boring.
None on the actual makers have enouigh resources to do this alone, but together they could make it.

Cooperation is a must, if not this industry will sink like the Titanic, the music will play on the back of the ship  while the front is already under water.
And I am not sure if this isn´t already the case.......

Regards
Stefan
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2012, 06:33:11 PM »
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It seems pretty clear that Leica is most likely to be the first with a CMOS based "MF" camera, unfortunately they don't do a standalone back.

Pentax is likely to be 2nd... Same story.

By that time the position of Hassy and Phase will have weakened since many potential buyers will of course understand that more resolution without live view has zero value. That's even without speaking about a 54mp D4x or 46mp Canon high res body.

If only Danes and Swedes could get along a bit better... or have gotten along 5 years ago. Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 08:49:06 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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