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Author Topic: Does order of operations matter?  (Read 4004 times)
gjanee
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« on: December 11, 2012, 06:48:05 PM »
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I've always heard that the order of LR operations doesn't matter; the same image will result from the same set of operations regardless of the order in which those operations were invoked.  See, for example, http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3234180.  I could swear I heard the same thing in the Schewe/Reitman videos.  Now, Adobe's performance hints for LR4 comes along and mentions that the order of operations does matter, at least as far as spot healing is concerned.  So, which is it?  Is spot healing a special case?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2012, 08:51:00 PM »
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We already have a thread on a similar subject, and this specific issue is discussed as well:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=73102.0
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gjanee
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 09:49:10 AM »
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Thanks, but I don't see where my question is answered in that thread (or this one).  Adobe has said that the order in which spot healing is performed qualitatively affects the final image.  Does it matter in general?  Or are there other specific cases in which order matters?
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MBehrens
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2012, 12:05:08 AM »
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This Link
http://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/kb/performance-hints.html

In the original posting of the thread Slobadan linked to has an order of operation list in it.
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CASpyr
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2012, 04:36:01 AM »
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Thanks, but I don't see where my question is answered in that thread (or this one).  Adobe has said that the order in which spot healing is performed qualitatively affects the final image.  Does it matter in general?  Or are there other specific cases in which order matters?

You shouldn't mix up performance with qualitative outcome of the picture rendering. The tips Adobe is giving are to optimize performance (I quote from their website: 'The best order of Develop operations to increase performance is as follows:...'). Nowhere in that article do they talk about qualitative differences.

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Christian Spyr
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2012, 06:58:19 AM »
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Nowhere in that article do they talk about qualitative differences.
Wrong, to quote the note at the bottom of "Order of Develop operations"
"Note: Performing spot healing first improves the accuracy of the spot healing, and ensures the boundaries of the healed areas match the spot location."
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CASpyr
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 06:42:24 AM »
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Wrong, to quote the note at the bottom of "Order of Develop operations"
"Note: Performing spot healing first improves the accuracy of the spot healing, and ensures the boundaries of the healed areas match the spot location."


I stand corrected. However, answering gjanee's last question, spot healing seems to be the only operation for which the sequence matters.

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michael
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 07:57:53 AM »
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As a general rule, order of operation in the Develop module doesn't matter. I frequently go back and forth between sliders getting the look that I want.

When you print or export a file LR will process it, not in the order that you worked on it, but in the optimum order for best IQ.

Michael
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Scott Hargis
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 12:35:47 PM »
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As a general rule, order of operation in the Develop module doesn't matter. I frequently go back and forth between sliders getting the look that I want.

When you print or export a file LR will process it, not in the order that you worked on it, but in the optimum order for best IQ.

Michael


Wait..what? Hasn't Jeff Schewe been saying that with PV 2012, the sliders are adaptive, or "smart" and that it's strongly recommended that you work in order from top down. The premise being that what you do with (for example) the exposure and contrast sliders will directly affect the behavior of the sliders below that (highlights, shadows, etc. etc.).

I also go back and forth, but I've been feeling guilty about it based on what Jeff has said. I think he makes this case in The Digital Negative, too.
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Robert-Peter Westphal
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 01:49:25 PM »
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Wait..what? Hasn't Jeff Schewe been saying that with PV 2012, the sliders are adaptive, or "smart" and that it's strongly recommended that you work in order from top down. The premise being that what you do with (for example) the exposure and contrast sliders will directly affect the behavior of the sliders below that (highlights, shadows, etc. etc.).

I also go back and forth, but I've been feeling guilty about it based on what Jeff has said. I think he makes this case in The Digital Negative, too.

Hi,
as far as I remember, Jeff said that the order of the sliders is just the order which Thomas K. decided will lead you to the best result in the fastest way.

The order, and therefor the rule they are used, would help you to get to the best result  possible.

Robert
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Don.H
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 06:16:53 PM »
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This may be self-evident to everyone else, but I was curious how the spot healing and adjustment brush objects would interact with the transform tools.

The linked image shows the result of a local spot healing or adj brush followed by a transform.  My observation is that the center of each adjustment moves as expected with a transform, but the shape of the "spot" is changed by the transform while the shape of the "brush" is not.

The images show the result of a local adjustment done before the transform, but I saw the same result in the reverse order. 
If you transform first then apply an adjustment brush, you get the expected round shape from a round brush.  However, if you transform then spot, you actually lay down a transformed (stretched) "spot".

This would imply that on a real image you should transform before applying local adjustment brushes.

I looked back at the Adobe LR Performance Hints referenced recently in this forum, and Adobe actually states to do spot healing before geometry before adjustment brushes - it turns out this affects functionality, not just performance.

Don
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stamper
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 02:58:35 AM »
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From a common sense point of view I would do a transform to an image first to get the shape the way you want it, including lens correction. A transform may need you to crop afterwards. Why then crop an area that you have spotted?
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 02:59:16 AM »
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Hi Don, welcome to LuLa, good first posts Smiley
The linked image shows the result of a local spot healing or adj brush followed by a transform. 
Can you confirm these are exported files rather than screen shots of work in progress ?
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Don.H
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 07:15:36 AM »
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Can you confirm these are exported files rather than screen shots of work in progress ?
Thanks & yes - they are exported files
The process was: Created jpg of gray squares on black (PS Elements), imported to LR, 2 VCs - one spotted & one brushed, more VCs with one transform each (constrain crop = off), exported all from LR, assembled composite in PS Elements

Actually a quick process, although it would certainly be nice to be able to right click after creating a VC in Develop to specify a copy name (rather than having to switch to Library).
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