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Author Topic: The future of medium format  (Read 19353 times)
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2012, 07:08:52 PM »
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Hi,

Just to make clear. This thread was started as an alternative to the negative threads about MF and is about the future of medium format.

One of the main reasons for starting it was the presentation of the new Alpa FPS the other was some suggestions about the need of CMOS sensors for MF by Stefan Steib, the inventor of the Hartblei HCam.

Actually, I find much of the discussion here relevant.

Best regards
Erik
I agree with Tho_mas on the recent flood of negative posting and more than enough technical babble by folks who don't even use digital MF.   I don't say there isn't a place for it, but I sure liked the forum a lot better when most of the posting had to do with "which is the good lens for this platform", and "how do you do that with this camera" etc.  Kind of stuff one that was actually using the gear could use.   

To eliminate the noise, I humbly suggest to Michael that he add the following two sub forums: 

1) Arm chair technobabble - the endless debate about what is better.   Rules: No one is allowed to post about a camera they have - this is strictly a theoretical forum.  No images please, unless they are of color charts, brick walls, or cats.

2) Complaints forum -  This section is for those that are unhappy for whatever reason wether it was due to operator error or some other fault.  Rules: No work arounds or other suggestions allowed. Conspiracy theories encouraged!


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EricWHiss
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« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2012, 07:28:01 PM »
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Actually, I find much of the discussion here relevant.

Of course you do!   Grin  You've probably made more than half the posts yourself! 
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FredBGG
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« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2012, 08:42:21 PM »
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Just for fun I took the two 100 iso RAW files, opened them in ACR 7.2, neutralised them on one of the X-Rite patches and lifted the shadows:







which is which?



« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:11:47 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2012, 09:31:55 PM »
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As a case in point: those images you posted were clearly processed in Capture One v6 or LR/ACR (or had awful settings applied in v7). The quality of higher ISO processing for Phase/Leaf files is remarkably better in version 7. The color bleed you see, the lack of color subtlety, and the poorly shaped grain structure are simply in your examples are absent in v7.  Check out an example on our facebook page.

I'm outta here for a while. This is tiring. I'll see you all in the new year.

The images I "posted" are simply linked from an article on Luminous Landscape as I had already stated.

These:




Come from here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/images-88/1600-plus-crop.jpg
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FredBGG
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« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2012, 09:40:54 PM »
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Getting back onto the subject of the thread. The future of medium format.

I think that film support is worth considering at least for those cameras with removable backs.

To someone that likes both film and digital it would be a pity to invest in a bunch of Phase One "Schneider" lenses and not be able to shoot film with them.

Infrared for example....

IT would just take making a simple film back... it's not like anything has to be invented.
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yaya
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« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2012, 01:18:24 AM »
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which is which?
Does it matter?
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jon404
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« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2012, 01:20:20 AM »
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Now don't laugh, but I've been using a small Olympus XZ-1 as a monochrome previewer-with-histogram along with a Nikon FM3a film camera. Just bought a Pentax 645N, and looking forward to more 'hybrid' photography.

Might be that part of the future of medium format will be more and more amateurs like me, dissatisfied with digital, looking for affordable work-arounds to mix old with new so we can enjoy what, to us, is VERY large format photography! And the beautiful older cameras that are so much more user-friendly than the new ones.

To mount the XZ-1 on a hotshoe, I bought a hotshoe adapter from Filmtools in Los Angeles. Works like a charm!  http://www.filmtools.com/ninmounbracf.html ... just checked, and it fits on the Pentax 645N just fine. Here's what it looks like on my Nikon:

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 01:31:32 AM by jon404 » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2012, 02:09:18 AM »
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To eliminate the noise, I humbly suggest to Michael that he add the following two sub forums: 

1) Arm chair technobabble - the endless debate about what is better.   Rules: No one is allowed to post about a camera they have - this is strictly a theoretical forum.  No images please, unless they are of color charts, brick walls, or cats.

2) Complaints forum -  This section is for those that are unhappy for whatever reason wether it was due to operator error or some other fault.  Rules: No work arounds or other suggestions allowed. Conspiracy theories encouraged!

+1 although I doubt it'll stop the noise...
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2012, 02:36:31 AM »
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Yes,

In addition I also started the thread.

Best regards
Erik

Of course you do!   Grin  You've probably made more than half the posts yourself! 
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Gel
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« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2012, 03:24:34 AM »
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Now don't laugh, but I've been using a small Olympus XZ-1 as a monochrome previewer-with-histogram along with a Nikon FM3a film camera. Just bought a Pentax 645N, and looking forward to more 'hybrid' photography.

Might be that part of the future of medium format will be more and more amateurs like me, dissatisfied with digital, looking for affordable work-arounds to mix old with new so we can enjoy what, to us, is VERY large format photography! And the beautiful older cameras that are so much more user-friendly than the new ones.

To mount the XZ-1 on a hotshoe, I bought a hotshoe adapter from Filmtools in Los Angeles. Works like a charm!  http://www.filmtools.com/ninmounbracf.html ... just checked, and it fits on the Pentax 645N just fine. Here's what it looks like on my Nikon:



Almost exactly what I do when shooting film to check exposure (but I use a 5D3).
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FredBGG
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« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2012, 03:26:28 AM »
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Just for fun I took the two 100 iso RAW files, opened them in ACR 7.2, neutralised them on one of the X-Rite patches and lifted the shadows:




which is which?


Does it matter?

There is a significant difference right? You say you took two ISO 100 files to compare them so which is which?
And can you help us understand the difference.
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yaya
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« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2012, 04:23:53 AM »
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The RAW files are there, you can check them and draw your own conclusions
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2012, 08:33:37 AM »
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Hi,

This is what I see in 100 ISO images. None of the graininess you have.

According to DxO mark there is very little difference between P645D and Nikon D800, except in DR where has a 2 EV advantage.

Personally I see very little difference. Regarding DR I may suggest that DR may be limited by lens flare on both.

Best regards
Erik




The RAW files are there, you can check them and draw your own conclusions
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Rob C
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« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2012, 10:20:21 AM »
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Almost exactly what I do when shooting film to check exposure (but I use a 5D3).



Why do you wish to complicate your life? If it's for fun, disregard this post.

Exposure for film and digi at the same quoted ISO rating is not the same: not the same any more than it was when shooting b/w film or colour transparency material of the same/near nominal speeds.

Instead of unstable constructs you simply need a good hand-held exposure meter and the understanding of how/why it works.

When I bought my first dig camera -a D200 - I did some sunlit tests and thought that my results using the Matrix metering of the D200 and the incident light readings from the Minolta Flashmeter set to the same 100 ISO were identical. What I didn't know was anything about the ETR exposure needs of digital imaging. I imagined that I could translate my decades' worth of Kodachrome and Ektachrome experience straight to digi, but I was mistaken. Film and diogi are not alike; don't confuse them because you'll do your photography no good service. At one time early in digi history the mantra was to treat digi as tranny; later, that was discarded for the ETR belief, which I think works better, but is far closer to the 'expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights' idea behind b/w film usage.

I still have a pristine F3 but it lives in a safe, almost unused from the year it was bought to replace an F4s, which I ended up hating.

Rob C
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BJL
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« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2012, 10:29:25 AM »
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Make that a high end digital camera on tripod below and something like an iPad mini above for preview and control, and I would be more interested. (Surprisingly, the iPad Mini only weighs about as much as that XZ-1.)
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bjanes
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« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2012, 11:09:38 AM »
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The noise at ISO 1600 in sensor plus is identical to the noise in an ISO400 full frame image. That is what I meant by "two free stops of iso". Going into sensor plus mode increases your native ISO by two stops, at the compromise of file size.

This correctness of this statement depends on the definition of ISO speed (for an explanation, see here). A saturation standard is most often employed, and the speed is determined by the exposure necessary to saturate the sensor. If the electron wells of the sensor are saturated, binning the wells inside of the sensor will have no effect on the exposure necessary for saturation, but it will have an effect on the signal:noise and would affect an ISO based on noise. The science of on chip pixel binning and how it compared to software binning (downsizing) is reviewed by a PhaseOne engineer here (click on the Sensor+ link).

The Sensor+ technology is very clever, but it would be interesting to know how often it is employed in the field. If one needs to shoot in low light situations using high ISO, the Nikon D3s or D4 makes more sense. The resolution advantage of the MFDB would be difficult to maintain under these conditions.

Regards,

Bill
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2012, 11:36:54 AM »
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This correctness of this statement depends on the definition of ISO speed (for an explanation, see here). A saturation standard is most often employed, and the speed is determined by the exposure necessary to saturate the sensor. If the electron wells of the sensor are saturated, binning the wells inside of the sensor will have no effect on the exposure necessary for saturation, but it will have an effect on the signal:noise and would affect an ISO based on noise. The science of on chip pixel binning and how it compared to software binning (downsizing) is reviewed by a PhaseOne engineer here (click on the Sensor+ link).

The Sensor+ technology is very clever, but it would be interesting to know how often it is employed in the field. If one needs to shoot in low light situations using high ISO, the Nikon D3s or D4 makes more sense. The resolution advantage of the MFDB would be difficult to maintain under these conditions.

Regards,

Bill

Sensor plus is quite good and I have used it many times when maybe a 35mm cam may have been a better choice. Personally I find comments like MF can't do this cant do that and is slow to work with a little misleading. Sometimes I may agree with that but again I also find it very overblown comments. Here is a whole review on Sensor plus I did some time ago. Low light stage work all done with sensor plus both handheld and monopod and BTW I use the same techniques as I would with 35mm. Again photography is more about solving issues and working with gear and using it the best you can . I rarely ever found MF limitations I could not deal with. Both focusing , speed , handheld ability all come down to you as the shooter on how you deal with the system within your hands. I will say the more experienced you are the better success you will have working within those limitations of a system. Every system is a compromise, its how you as the shooter deal with it. Obviously some folks will fail and some will succeed , again knowing your system and making it work to its advantages and knowing the disadvantages the more success you will have. Check this out on sensor plus, its clean , it works and the files are great. I have shot these shows for years and my best looking files have come from sensor plus.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/29252-phase-one-iq-160-sensor-plus-high-iso.html
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2012, 11:47:40 AM »
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These were processed. In c1 version 6 and today with version 7 my guess the noise would be even better as Version 7 is a whole new excellent processing engine that I find so much better than Version 6 both with my Phase and Nikon files. So the new engine I would expect even better results on several levels.

Before anyone goes off on 35mm would be a better tool , I would not totally disagree. I could have shot maybe a little faster and a little more wide open and captured the same DOF and such. Obviously that is true but the point is you can work very similar if you work within a systems limitations and at the time i did not have a 35mm system so you use what you have. The one nice thing on this with the same MF systems at any point i could go back to a full resolution shot of 60 mpx at a flip of a switch. Which sometimes going to sensor plus in situations like doing a landscape the wind picks up a great deal the light is going down and you need speed without sensor plus you just maybe packing your bags but with it you can keep on working and still get the images. So i find it a very nice option to have on a system and a great option to turn too when you really need it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:05:11 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

bjanes
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« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2012, 12:25:28 PM »
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Sensor plus is quite good and I have used it many times when maybe a 35mm cam may have been a better choice. Personally I find comments like MF can't do this cant do that and is slow to work with a little misleading. Sometimes I may agree with that but again I also find it very overblown comments. Here is a whole review on Sensor plus I did some time ago. Low light stage work all done with sensor plus both handheld and monopod and BTW I use the same techniques as I would with 35mm. Again photography is more about solving issues and working with gear and using it the best you can . I rarely ever found MF limitations I could not deal with. Both focusing , speed , handheld ability all come down to you as the shooter on how you deal with the system within your hands. I will say the more experienced you are the better success you will have working within those limitations of a system. Every system is a compromise, its how you as the shooter deal with it. Obviously some folks will fail and some will succeed , again knowing your system and making it work to its advantages and knowing the disadvantages the more success you will have. Check this out on sensor plus, its clean , it works and the files are great. I have shot these shows for years and my best looking files have come from sensor plus.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/29252-phase-one-iq-160-sensor-plus-high-iso.html


Those shots are impressive. However, most of the shots are relatively static, which simplifies shooting. Also what percentage of your shots were keepers? For action shots in low light, I haven't seen evidence that the Sports Illustrated pros or the PJs at Reuters and elsewhere are switching to MFDB. Long and fast lenses favored by these photographers are not in the MFDB lineup. Also, to maintain equivalent depth of field, one must use the next smallest f/stop with MFDB. Interested readers should see the "Bigger Lenses for Bigger Sensors" here.

I'm not trying to knock MFDB, but as our host says, "Horses for courses".

Regards,

Bill
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2012, 12:36:37 PM »
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 "Horses for courses".

Yes, absolutely! The problem with many of these threads is that they turn into which is better DSLR or MFDB, erroneously proposing that a photographer could only have one camera.  There will always be situations where one is better suited than another.
 
Of course if you only are interested in discussing the technology, then you don't need a camera at all. Unfortunately for those folks, they miss out on how important the usability of the gear is, the character of the resulting images, and only see the easily quantifiable data.   As an example, mirror vibration is still a big issue for both formats that is overlooked (d800 and mamiya DF included).
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