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Author Topic: Connecticut Tragedy  (Read 21837 times)
marvpelkey
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« on: December 14, 2012, 05:32:37 PM »
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As a retired cop, I have been associated in various ways to a number of tragedies and, like a lot of cops, have learned to build a pretty thick skin. This one, however, when I heard the news, literally took my breath away.

I'm not religious but, if there is a heaven, may all the victims rest in peace there. And may the shooter receive no such consideration.

Marv
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stamper
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 03:02:23 AM »
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Despite this being the Coffee Corner I hope this subject is closed before it goes any further. I don't think a discussion on the forum is appropriate, especially as all of the facts aren't known.  Sad
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Rob C
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 03:17:29 AM »
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Despite this being the Coffee Corner I hope this subject is closed before it goes any further. I don't think a discussion on the forum is appropriate, especially as all of the facts aren't known.  Sad


What more's to know?

But yes, you're right: it's one of those endless topics that only breeds anger and creates splits. It's all far too late for the States; we have very strict gun laws in the UK but no thug finds himself challenged in discovering where to acquire a gun. Removing millions of legally-held guns doesn't affect the millions of illegal ones by one iota. And mad people are mad, regardless of the laws. And very mad ones are also very clever in their own ways.

It's now an unavoidable part of the dangers of living.

Rob C
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 03:41:42 AM »
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I think any sane person can sympathize with the families of the slain and feel some of the horror of the event.
As for how to stop things like this happening well there probably isn't an easy solution since the factors that lead to these murder/suicides are complex and appear ingrained in society in some parts of the world.
Every now and then enough of the elements for tragedy combine and another massacre results.
Unfortunately the absence of legally acquired firearms appears to present no hindrance.

Tony Jay
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michswiss
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 04:26:16 AM »
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...
Unfortunately the absence of legally acquired firearms appears to present no hindrance.

...

From the Washington Post

Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States/
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 04:47:30 AM »
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These tragedies are not limited to the USA, and by the way I am not in favour of lax gun-control laws.

Tony Jay
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opgr
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 05:27:42 AM »
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Not to make this discussion any longer than need be, but there is also the case of the Joker in Belgium who used a knife. The question probably is not one of gun control, but one of how to keep the psychos away from the save-zones.

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michswiss
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 06:17:15 AM »
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Not to make this discussion any longer than need be, but there is also the case of the Joker in Belgium who used a knife. The question probably is not one of gun control, but one of how to keep the psychos away from the save-zones.



Just so you know, I had a close personal friend impacted by the Belgium attack.  I was in Sydney with family on holiday and picked up an SMH in the morning only to see my friend on the cover hugging his wife and sobbing.  I feel these things deeply.

Yes, some people with mental illnesses have done profoundly horrible things.  In this case, it seems the young man used the weaponry his mom had bought legally.  Would he have found another way?  Unanswerable.

Edited to add:
My friend Rik is on the left with his wife, child and sister in the rest of the frame.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 06:45:37 AM by michswiss » Logged

Steve Weldon
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 06:57:54 AM »
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As retired military and with 4 years as a police officer in a large California city.. and one of the officers who responded to the San Ysidro massacre back in the 80's, a few days and nights that ran together which I'll never forget and changed my life  since... this impacted in a big way.

I'm not alone in being totally stunned by what I was hearing and seeing on television.  It hurt.  It hurt because there are things we can do and should do which would be very effective while being as politically neutral as possible.  As I was watching the events unfold I penned an article "What Would Have Prevented The Sandy Hook, CT School Shootings?" while knowing, sadly, extremists on both sides will ultimately prevent any real progress. 
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 09:02:49 AM »
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Hi,

I feel these are horrible things. On the other hand I guess it is not so much about gun control legislature bud crazy minds. Bad things happen in countries with much more restrictive gun controls that in the US.

My thinking is that we have a lot of folks around with disturbed minds. There is also an excessive amount of violence in entertainment and video games. Most people can tell entertainment and real life apart, but some can't.

We had a couple of shootings here in Sweden. In one case a lower rank military officer broke of with his lady friend, got drunk and shot seven young ladies in women's auxiliary corps. In an other case a criminal was refused entry to one of the famous Stockholm restaurants, so he got a submachine gun and shot several guests. Some people always will have arms accessible and some simply don't care about laws.

Sweden had a pretty decent "secretary of state" living in my home town. She was attacked by a person carrying a knife in one of the shopping centers in Stockholm. A nice lady, met her several times in a grocery store. The only person I met who has been killed in violence.

Best regards
Erik
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 09:20:38 AM »
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Firstly - a terrible tragedy.  Secondly - I too am not sure if it is a good topic for a discussion forum on LL.

However let's get real.  Any normal person thinks they would be no risk if they owned a firearm.  Likewise we all think we are good drivers - I happen to be one of the best.
But the number of deaths by firearms is directly linked to the number of firearms in circulation.  Fortunately there are only very few people crazy enough to think about killing a whole lot of innocent bystanders, but when weapons are freely available it makes it much more likely that they will be able to get a firearm to carry out a killing.  This seems so obvious as to be true.
Of course the pro-gun lobby would have you believe that if every citizen had the right to carry a firearm around then they would be able to defend themselves against the crazies.  Yeah right.  Every town would soon be having weekly shootouts.

We have many problems here in the UK, but fortunately gun crime is not one.  Tight gun control laws in the UK mean the the US has 13 times the number of deadly shootings per head of population.

There may be many here who know much more than me about this subject, but I don't think the US has badder people than elsewhere - just more guns in circulation.  A knee-jerk reaction is just what the US needs for a change - tighter gun-control laws.  Sure, the baddies would still get them - but many shootings are not done by your average law-breaker, but by people who have lost the plot.

Jim
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Justan
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 09:40:41 AM »
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The US will not likely see stricter gun control laws in our lifetimes. The gun selling lobby is overwhelmingly strong and unrelenting. While I doubt there is any wisdom of maintaining the US 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, that isnít going to change any time soon.

What is more likely the outcome of these endless strings of shooting are tighter crowd control laws including the types of things that take place when entering airport concourses and Federal buildings. Before too long this type of screening will occur at schools and shopping malls. Controlling the impulses of a few nut cases is a huge technical challenge that turns into another opportunity for an attempted solution by way of a vast work creating project.

There is nothing wrong with discussing this kind of topic. Doing so helps all. On the other hand suppressing reasonable discussion is nearly always misguided. Freedom of discussion is perhaps the most important element of humanity as it leads to positive change.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 10:50:43 AM »
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Some information:

1.  Connecticut has the most restrictive gun control in the nation.

2.  The weapons were legally purchased by the school teacher mom.

3.  They appear to have not been stored in such a way that an under aged (you must be 21 to own a handgun) child/friend/casual thief, or other could gain access to them.\

4.  The school had new safeguard policies in place and active.   The kid had to be identified and buzzed in bas on recognition.

5.  They've learned the kid who did this has mental issues.  There is no way he qualifies to own or have access to firearms with existing laws, though because of privacy advocates fighting which information can be entered in the national database used for gun checks I doubt there is one thing about this guy available to law enforcement.

6.  Be careful of quoted statistics.  More guns equal more gun deaths in the same way more humans equals more humans dying by natural means, or accidents, or in any other way people die.  Statistics are not easy for the average person to understand.


With the information available as of now, none of the popular gun control methods would have prevented this shooting. 

What would have worked in this case is proper storage of firearms thereby limiting access.  If this was a law and it had failed, the only possible way to improve this specific situation was to have trained teachers with their own firearms as a first line defence.  Fortunately the schools new policies are said to have prevented  the shooter getting to even more victims.

Sadly all these recent shooting in the temples, malls, schools.. have very similar circumstances. 
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marvpelkey
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 12:06:11 PM »
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Not sure why some don't think this is an appropriate subject for Coffee Corner. As Justan so aptly notes, hardly anything good results from suppression of discussion. Although the subject is difficult and emotional, the conversation, so far, has been one of the most civil I have witnessed on Lula. Funny, though, the most disagreement has been over whether the topic is suitable for the forum.

Marv
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 12:23:23 PM »
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These tragedies are not limited to the USA, and by the way I am not in favour of lax gun-control laws.

Tony Jay

right, but numbers wise USA is so much ahead of other countries by any measure... I mean - Canada is just across the "border" and unlike Mexico it is more similar society in terms of economics/education/mentality/etc... what is so different though... oh, gun laws nationwide.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 12:35:52 PM »
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Some information:

1.  Connecticut has the most restrictive gun control in the nation.


the laws shall be nation wide, limiting laws to a state or a city does not solve the problem

2.  The weapons were legally purchased by the school teacher mom.

and that is the problem - she shall not be able to do that and in such quantity...


3.  They appear to have not been stored in such a way that an under aged (you must be 21 to own a handgun) child/friend/casual thief, or other could gain access to them.\

that is your guess only


5.  They've learned the kid who did this has mental issues.  There is no way he qualifies to own or have access to firearms with existing laws, though because of privacy advocates fighting which information can be entered in the national database used for gun checks I doubt there is one thing about this guy available to law enforcement.

1) they learned

and

2) yet you doubt

so there is a way learn legally, unless they learned that illegally now ?



6.  Be careful of quoted statistics.  More guns equal more gun deaths in the same way more humans equals more humans dying by natural means, or accidents, or in any other way people die.  Statistics are not easy for the average person to understand.

what is to be careful about - more guns more deaths from guns, more people more deaths from natural causes = less people less deaths from natural causes, less guns less deaths from guns... however we can easily make less guns w/o any issues, unlike to make less people... so it is a no brainer...

With the information available as of now, none of the popular gun control methods would have prevented this shooting. 

with the information available as of now, making it impossible for a law complying teacher to get any or so many of them would prevent that kind of massacre.

What would have worked in this case is proper storage of firearms thereby limiting access. 

inability to get or have so many guns will work much better on top of proper storage requirements

If this was a law and it had failed, the only possible way to improve this specific situation was to have trained teachers with their own firearms as a first line defence.  Fortunately the schools new policies are said to have prevented  the shooter getting to even more victims.

the only possible way is to outlaw NRA, tax gun owners a lot, implement mandatory fingerprining and DNA collection, huge waiting period during the sales process, ban on line sales, criminal BC (yearly), drug testing (yearly), limit on how many you can own/limit automatic and semiautomatic weapons, implement mandatory insurance payments from guns manufactureres/dealers/owners to a fund to compensate victims and so on... you have the right, true - but we have the right to make it difficult for you.


Sadly all these recent shooting in the temples, malls, schools.. have very similar circumstances. 

indeed, NRA reign of terror in the country.
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dmerger
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 12:42:15 PM »
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It doesnít matter whether youíre for or against gun control.  Any proposal for gun control that doesnít specifically take the Second Amendment into account isnít realistic.

The U.S. Supreme Court held, in DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER, that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.  There can be restrictions on firearms, but under U.S. law it is not possible to make much of a dent in the number of firearms in the U.S.  It is highly unlikely that the U.S. Supreme Court will overturn its opinion in Heller within our lifetime, if ever.  The prospects for amending the U.S. Constitution to change the Second Amendment is also nil.  So, at best, gun control can have only a minor effect. 

Gun control has become a political tool aimed more at riling up voter constituencies than real attempts to solve a problem.  The NRA types are being played for fools by the Republicans.  Nobody is really going to take away their guns, but scaremongering drives political contributions and votes.  The Democrats (to a lesser degree on this issue) use gun control in a similar fashion. When trying to rile up their voter base with talk about gun control, they usually gloss over the fact that, under the Second Amendment, they canít really solve, or even make much a dent, in the problem. 

Most Americans (including gun owners) agree on many sensible, legal gun restrictions.  Reasonable and responsible politicians (oxymoron alert!) could easily adopt such restrictions, but then theyíd lose a political ploy, so it ainít gonna happen.
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Dean Erger
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 12:49:53 PM »
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I"m sure there's going to lots of discussion about guns and gun control in the near future, but I think Roger Ebert is onto something when he says that the non-stop, sensationalistic coverage these events get in the media plays a significant role in encouraging disturbed individuals to carry out these acts. The media gives these psychos exactly the attention they're wanting.
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dmerger
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 01:01:57 PM »
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One of the best proposals I've seen for effective gun control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II   Wink
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Dean Erger
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 01:04:16 PM »
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If a dent is possible, then this seems to be the place:WeThePeople

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Oscar Rysdyk
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