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Author Topic: View Print Size Now Missing In Photoshop CS6?  (Read 16576 times)
JimGoshorn
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« on: December 20, 2012, 07:30:11 PM »
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Hi,

I updated Photoshop Extended CS6 to the latest version today (13.0.3) and when I went to display a file by print size, I noticed that the print size button is no longer on the tool bar when using the magnifying glass tool nor is it under the view menu.

What gives?

Thanks!

Jim
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Schewe
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 10:05:19 PM »
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Removed because, well, unless you knew how to properly set up the exact resolution of your display, it was always wrong...so, do you know how to properly setup the exact screen rez? (hint, it's buried in the New Document Preset Resolutions in the Units & Rulers preference).

Besides, its was a very poor size interpolation because the screen display is Bilinear Interpolation (assuming you are using the proper GPU settings, otherwise it's Nearest Neighbor which really sucks).
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JimGoshorn
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 10:44:13 PM »
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Hi Jeff,

Hoping you'd chime in :-)

Yes, I had the pref set to 94ppi and GPU to advanced. Remembering what you said, I check for approx sharpness etc. in print by setting the magnification to 50%. Used the print size just to get an idea of final look and not for precision.

Thanks for the explanation for why it was taken away although I will miss it.

BTW, enjoying the digital negative and looking forward to the digital print.

Jim
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digitaldog
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 12:30:37 PM »
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Despite the facts Jeff's presented, be prepared to hear a lot of bitching and moaning from users who don't really understand what the 'feature' is really providing.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 12:45:18 PM »
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Some of the people who will bitch and moan understand the feature and see no reason to remove it.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2012, 12:52:19 PM »
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Some of the people who will bitch and moan understand the feature and see no reason to remove it.

That's really questionable understanding of the 'feature' considering the facts Jeff wrote.

Assuming you really do know how to configure the setting, just what do you hope to achieve?

Going back to 2001, Real World Photoshop 6 (and in editions forward), the advise on this ’feature’ is distilled on page 17: "We just ignore it".

Bruce explains what’s necessary to get it actually work in later editions and unless the correct values are calculated and inserted, the ’feature’ doesn’t do anything remotely what the name suggests.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 12:56:12 PM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2012, 01:11:40 PM »
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It isn't rocket science to figure out what values you should put in there, though I agree the defaults are pretty far off. I'm not saying it's an irreplaceable feature, but it's a nice shortcut to get an idea of roughly what zoom view on-screen will correlate with your target print size. From there you can step to one of the higher-quality zoom levels Photoshop supports.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2012, 01:16:52 PM »
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It isn't rocket science to figure out what values you should put in there, though I agree the defaults are pretty far off.

No it isn't. Yet few know how to do this. But once again, just what are we supposed to gain here? For tiny screen size images, that's one thing. But for high rez?

It is very, very rare to see Adobe remove features. But when you consider what Schewe, Fraser and the Adobe engineers feel about this 'feature' it's difficult to see the other side of the argument!
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2012, 05:17:53 PM »
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I'm not saying it's an irreplaceable feature, but it's a nice shortcut to get an idea of roughly what zoom view on-screen will correlate with your target print size.

I disagree...I think you are not seeing anything really useful with high rez images on a display unless you have a divisible number such as 100%, 50% or 25%. The moment you see an image that is not those sizes you are seeing a very poor interpolation of the image. Most displays are in the range of 90-110 PPI. If you are outputting for halftone you'll be using 300 PPI which means that the image rez will be 3X the display rez. If you are outputting inkjet with high rez images (I output at 360 or 730 PPI) the images displayed will be about 4-7X compared to the display. So, looking at the image at the actual print size (assuming you know how to set the display rez correctly) the image is displayed with very low resolution–particularly if you are making big prints...I gotta tell ya, that tells me exactly nothing useful about the image detail. Even if you had a 15" Macbook Pro with Retina, it's still only about 220 PPI and while better, this is still not really enough resolution you get anything really useful when viewing at print size...

Look, the current displays are simply low resolution devices that are not really suitable for viewing high resolution image detail. The feature in Photoshop was removed because it really didn't work correctly and very few users knew how to use it. The guy on the engineering team would like to try to come up with some sort of new approach to previewing image detail and provide a more useful feature, but in the meantime the decision was made to remove it because i cased more problems than it solved.
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JimGoshorn
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2012, 05:57:19 PM »
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The guy on the engineering team would like to try to come up with some sort of new approach to previewing image detail and provide a more useful feature, but in the meantime the decision was made to remove it because i cased more problems than it solved.

Hopefully, Adobe will come up with a suitable replacement. It's good to know that they are still interested in the feature as long as it could be reinstated with a better result.

Jim
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2012, 03:42:58 AM »
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So, looking at the image at the actual print size (assuming you know how to set the display rez correctly) the image is displayed with very low resolution
Which isn't a problem if you just want an idea of layout at real size. Not everything one does in Photoshop is about photo printing.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 10:07:44 PM »
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Removing it was simply IDIOTIC.

Just because it might not be useful for certain uses, it does not mean there are no other useful uses at all.

Once I set it up correctly (which isn't such a rocket science) then I can use a measuring tape to double check the dimensions of the printed image. For instance, I was just today (Christmas Eve) printing an insert for a Starbucks tumbler, which needs to be of EXACT printed dimensions in order to fit in. In prior editions of Photoshop, I would just place the Starbuck cutout onto the screen and be sure it is the right dimension. Of course, in CS6, without that feature, my printout was a few millimeters off.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 09:51:31 AM by Slobodan Blagojevic » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2012, 10:38:29 PM »
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Removing it was simply IDIOTIC.

It is what it is...it's gone–just like No Color Management from the Print dlog...deal with it. It won't be coming back in it's current incarnation. And while YOU say setting it up correctly isn't rocket science, I would venture to guess that prolly less than 5% of the installed user base actually knew how to do that (people here perhaps being in that 5%).

If you are worried about exact layout, size & position, may I suggest you look into InDesign (since that's what it's designed for).
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JimGoshorn
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2012, 08:11:41 AM »
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If you want an approximation, couldn't you resize the image to the ppi that you set in preferences and then display it at 100%?

Jim
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 04:07:14 AM »
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It is what it is...it's gone–just like No Color Management from the Print dlog...deal with it.
No problem here. I stopped upgrading at CS4.
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I would venture to guess that prolly less than 5% of the installed user base actually knew how to do that (people here perhaps being in that 5%).
If you strip out everything that isn't used by more than 5% of the users Photoshop becomes Elements or Touch. Then try and justify the huge cost.
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If you are worried about exact layout, size & position, may I suggest you look into InDesign (since that's what it's designed for).
I assume you haven't tried that yourself then ? If so you'd know that InDesign doesn't have a 'view real size' option. The only way to get that is by trial and error to work out the correct zoom ratio, then write a script to view at that size and assign a keyboard short cut etc... It's a bigger mess than PS (was).

For an excellent example of how to implement this feature have a look at Scribus (the open source alternative to InDesign). If you have a ruler to hand, setting up the screen resolution takes less than 10 seconds, just 5 clicks of the mouse, no calculations needed.
If an open source program can make viewing at 100% actual size so easy, why can't Adobe ?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 06:39:07 AM by Rhossydd » Logged
mac_paolo
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 05:56:53 AM »
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It is what it is...it's gone–just like No Color Management from the Print dlog...deal with it. It won't be coming back in it's current incarnation. And while YOU say setting it up correctly isn't rocket science, I would venture to guess that prolly less than 5% of the installed user base actually knew how to do that (people here perhaps being in that 5%).
Viewing the photo in print size wasn't mean to have a good rendition of it. Sharpening boost is set with 50-100-200% depending on the needs.
That feature was useful when needed to review the layout of the photo at a certain size, the print size. Some photos work well when printed big, for smaller prints you may need to crop more so that a particular detail doesn't get lost. Not the easiest concept to explain, but it is. This is true even with prints which ar way bigger than the monitor itself.
I do miss it into Lightroom!
As other said, Photoshop CS6 lives thanks to features that 2-5% of the users need. Maybe 5% of PS users knew how to set it up, but 80% of those who needed that "zoom level" knew it. Who cares about the rest of non-users?

If you are worried about exact layout, size & position, may I suggest you look into InDesign (since that's what it's designed for).
…or even better an older Photoshop, or even Photoshop Elements.  Roll Eyes
To buy InDesign to view an image as print size is as questionable as buying Photoshop Extended to convert a JPG to PNG for the web.
This unless Adobe gives you the product for free, but I'm not that lucky.
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ternst
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 06:26:29 AM »
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Guess I'm an idiot. I use this every day, as I have been for years, and it has nothing to do with sharpening or judging image quality. It is still there in my version of CS6 - was this only removed from the extended version? I would never move into InDesign in order to get a quick look at an image at real size though (the process would no longer be "quick") - I'd rather just use a ruler and adjust the percentage manually until it matched.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2012, 07:53:30 AM »
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Guess I'm an idiot. I use this every day, as I have been for years, and it has nothing to do with sharpening or judging image quality. It is still there in my version of CS6 - was this only removed from the extended version?

Hi,

It's not removed on my perpetual licencing Windows version of CS6 Extended (see attachment)... I suppose it was removed on the more recent Cloud version update 13.0.3 ...

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I would never move into InDesign in order to get a quick look at an image at real size though (the process would no longer be "quick") - I'd rather just use a ruler and adjust the percentage manually until it matched.

Or just calculate it based on the PPI setting of the display, and temporarily resample the image size to the desired dimensions at the required PPI for the display used. My laptop e.g. has a 1920 pixels wide native display and is a fraction over 381mm wide, which equates to 1920/381*25.4 = 128 PPI.

Doing the same for print also gives a much better preview impression of fine detail than using the crude interpolation by zooming, although it's too inconvenient for use during an editing process. It would be much better to use a simple switch like the Print Preview button, but with better resampling quality (e.g. adding a Mitchell Netravali resampling filter option would be a much nicer allround method than the current choices, and one with an adjustable sharpness parameter would even be more flexible). It could be made into a Preference option to use for Print Preview or not.

Why does Adobe Photoshop development drag it's feet when it comes to resampling? There are increasing numbers of better alternatives, just not as convenient in a simple single application workflow, because they need the use of a plugin or an external application instead of being built into the application itself.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 06:31:44 PM by BartvanderWolf » Logged
ternst
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2012, 06:22:05 PM »
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I've got the same version of the regular CS6 - 13.0.1 and have not updated, so it looks like they removed this feature in a dot update and not just CS6? That is odd. Why would they remove something that is a great little feature in a dot update? I must remember to not update this version as the dots come along...
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Rob Reiter
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 07:18:03 PM »
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I use the feature all the time with clients who bring me files of all sorts of quality/resolution and want to know "how big can I print this?" I show them on the monitor using View Print Size (it's not at all hard to set up properly.) Is it perfect? Of course not, no more than any other monitor representation of a paper print can be, but it is totally useful. Not one person has ever complained to me that they were disappointed in the print after seeing the on-screen representation at print size and many made adjustments to the print size after seeing the monitor version.

For others here to say that is has no value and intimate that those who think it does simply don't understand it is just arrogant. If you have no need for it, fine. If you can't see the other side of the argument, that's your own limitation.
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