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Author Topic: What papers should I use for exhibiting at an art auction?  (Read 1974 times)
bucko
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« on: December 21, 2012, 09:40:12 PM »
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Hi,

I have been accepted to an art auction with this photo. I am looking at five different papers that could be used for this and with other photography that I have done. (17 X 22 with the Epson 3880) I primarily do landscapes, macro, abstract with Velvia 50 film and digital. I can't spend money on samples.
The papers are:

Canson Bartya Photographique  310gsm
Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper 300gsm
MOAB/Legion Colorado Fiber Gloss  245 gsm
MOAB/Legion Colorado Fiber Satine  245gsm
LexJet eSatin Sunset 300gsm

Thank you

Bucko

©Ripples in Time(All Rights Reserved)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 10:58:33 PM by bucko » Logged
bill t.
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2012, 10:33:29 PM »
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Use the paper that looks the best!  Rhymes with "test."   Smiley  The road to media happiness is lined with reject prints.

But be advised that it's 98% presentation, and only about 2% specific media.
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bill t.
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2012, 12:29:25 AM »
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OK, here's a more nuts & bolts answer...

You got a lot of one color range in that picture.  You would want to have a paper that could reproduce that color range well, and more specifically where no part of that color range was out of gamut for your printer/paper combination.  That doesn't look like a very problematic color, but you never know until you try.  That image depends a lot on subtle tonal modulation and if any parts were out of gamut they would go sort of blank looking.

So download the profiles for your printer, for each of those papers.  Load up the image in Photoshop or Lightroom.   Turn on soft proofing, be sure Gamut Warning is turned on.  One by one try out the profiles in soft proofing mode.  If you see patches of out of gamut warning color, scratch that baby off the list.  If it looks good, big gold star next to its name!  Make notes about anything special you like or dislike, and maybe fiddle with the sliders to see what the possibilities are with that particular media.  Remember that soft proofing must be taken with a couple grains of salt, but if everything is profiled and calibrated it's usually pretty good.

And I think you need kind of a cutting-edge, cold as steel presentation with that image.  Dibond panel?  Aluminum panel?  It's your call.  Just Anything except a metal sectional frame with an 8 ply matte, IMHO.  Oh, nice image!
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 04:51:12 AM »
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Pare it down to 2 and yes I am going to say it,get some samples.
I just cannot imagine this is the only project you are going to do? You really need to print and see the results for yourself.
Once you have printed on a dozen or more sample papers you will know exactly which one you want to use the next time.

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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2012, 06:31:40 AM »
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You got a lot of one color range in that picture.  You would want to have a paper that could reproduce that color range well, and more specifically where no part of that color range was out of gamut for your printer/paper combination.  That doesn't look like a very problematic color, but you never know until you try.  That image depends a lot on subtle tonal modulation and if any parts were out of gamut they would go sort of blank looking.


The above is a good start.
With color like that I would be careful with papers that have a fluorescent whitening agent (OBA). On one hand you would like a cool paper to keep the blues good, on the other hand too much OBA and no control of the display lighting would make things worse. Check what lamps they use. A paper with a high white reflectance and just enough OBA to make it neutral would be my choice. The Canson in your list is an excellent choice, it is a clone of the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. Lab 98.0 0.0 0.1
Do not touch the EEF for various reasons, the LexJet is unknown to me.

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December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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mrchapp
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 01:58:46 PM »
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I would be very interested in learning about/discussing epson exhibition fiber paper issues.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 04:46:57 PM »
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I would be very interested in learning about/discussing epson exhibition fiber paper issues.
Loaded with OBAs.  It's been discussed quite a lot on this forum in the past and you can also look at the Aardenburg test data to see for yourself what's going on with the paper.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2012, 04:49:05 PM »
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I would be very interested in learning about/discussing epson exhibition fiber paper issues.

The EEF is not neutral but cool due to the higher OBA content and its paper white shifts color faster in time than the pigment inks printed on it. Not just because the OBA degrades but for another unknown reason. See the Aardenburg Imaging tests of EEF.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

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mstevensphoto
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2012, 04:50:37 PM »
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I printed an image like that with similar tones on slick rock metalic and had nice results. in the Moab Family I'd take Exhibition lustre over the colorado line.
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bucko
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2012, 06:51:22 PM »
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Thanks, I would use MOAB lasal exhibition luster as well but don't see it in 17 X 22. What metallic paper did you use? Any more suggestions appreciated.

Bucko
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 06:57:52 PM by bucko » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 06:04:34 AM »
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Thanks, I would use MOAB lasal exhibition luster as well but don't see it in 17 X 22.
Bucko

Has a b -7 with even more OBA content than the EEF. Basically a Felix Schoeller RC quality that is sold by more brands, Kodak and Canson in the US plus Arca, BonJet and Photolux in Europe. Your image blues show a split towards violet and cyan, as written before OBA reflectance/effect from different lightsources can throw them easily out of balance. Take a lower OBA content paper if you do not know the gallery lights. 

In the Aardenburg list you can also see what the shift is between UV-enabled and UV-cut measurements, the UV Delta-b* influence column. Canon Heavyweight Satin, almost all Epson RC and HP RC qualities are more modest on OBA content. You can find papers that are quite cool but do not shift that much and the opposite of that. For example the EEF shows a shift of 6.2 DeltaE and a Lab b -4.9,  the Epson Premium Luster Photo paper a shift of 1.2 DeltaE and a Lab b -3.9. So the last an almost as cool paper as the EEF but far more white color constancy than the EEF.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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elolaugesen
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 10:13:32 AM »
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Bill T.   is right.   

the wrong paper can make it look terrible.   Get one that works for you.   After that  it is presentation, presentation, presentation...  the average buyer does not care about the technocrats' concerns about gamut, OBA etc etc.
     
only one think matters does it look good? will it fit on my walls?       will my partner find a fault in the mat/frame? (ie does it clash with anything...)   

these comments are all based on the fact that you said it is for an auction..   thus it is sales that matter

After having used many different papers I am now down to three papers (not the cheapest) all for different types of art......    they work for me, look good consistently  (artist and client viewpoint)  and they sell. 

Keep presentation simple, elegant, do not skimp on quality, make it look like they get something impressive for their money .....  Finally study the market,  What kind of auction is it?  business? fancy offices? old traditional homes? young people setting up homes?  etc etc....  then think of what each one would like to have.......

cheers elo
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bucko
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 10:19:50 AM »
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Would you say that the Epson Premium Luster is a safe bet for almost everything? I am not a technical person (somewhat) on papers but I am looking for something that has long lasting life, neutral or bright white if this mean anything. (probably not)

I see another review of the EEF on Luminous which seems to like it.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Epson_Exhibition_Fiber.shtml

Also Elo... what three papers do you use?

I have been in the auction several times before but this is the first time I am printing with my own printer. I might add the place where I got it printed before uses LexJet eSatin. The results were nice but I am just checking around.

Thank you
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 10:24:40 AM by bucko » Logged
elolaugesen
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2012, 10:49:27 AM »
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I use for customer work.....   no photographs     all original art - watercolours, oils, pastels, acrylic..... pencils   mixed media etc. etc....

Hahnemuhle…
Matte FineArt Textured
Albrecht Durer
German Etching
William Turner

For my other half - she will expetiment with anything and I use all the samplers to see how they work out...  do a one page ICC profile using spyderprint to see how the paper turns out then if we like it buy a box and do a proper profile. 

But for clients the above three....   they work for me and them...   no surprises....

cheers elo
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Sal Baker
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »
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I've settled in on using Canson Bartya Photographique 310gsm for auctions.  It's a wonderful paper and has looked good in any gallery lighting I've encountered so far.  EEF looks great for my "dramatic" B&W work that usually starts from conservatively compressed HDR images, but I'm concerned about the longevity of the prints as mentioned above.

Sal
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bucko
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 04:48:37 PM »
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ah hah.....Sal! Thanks. This is one I am looking at. I just went to my local photo shop and they carry most of the brands I mentioned. They suggested Canson Bartya Photographique, Ilford Gold Silk, and Epson Cold press Natural. The guy didn't think EEF was the best for cost over the other brands. It is also cool in color. I am looking for more neutral and natural.

Hahnemuhle is just too pricy but amazing art papers. William Turner, Albrecht Durer, German Etching
They also started carrying Red River which I use to make greeting cards with.

Thank you!

bucko
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 09:12:14 AM »
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Bill T.   is right.   

the wrong paper can make it look terrible.   Get one that works for you.   After that  it is presentation, presentation, presentation...  the average buyer does not care about the technocrats' concerns about gamut, OBA etc etc.


The right paper in the wrong light can make it look terrible and also very nice in the right light. There are papers that show less change between the two and can be the right papers too. I would not make much noise about an image with saturated colors with different hues but I know those blue greys.

Download the image sample in the first message. Load it in Photoshop, sRGB assigned. Convert to Lab. Add an L 96 extra canvas border. Select curves and b axis and shift the highlight control point so the border shifts b +1 and -5, that is more or less what the EEF paper does to the image when UV light is available or not. Based on the UV Delta-b influence shift of several EEF samples in Aardenburg PDFs. Hardly any L or a shift happens, 1 DeltaE at most. Check what Info says about the b shift and look at the blues of the image. The light blue shifts about 5 DeltaE on the b value between the two extremes, it is a huge difference visually.

I have added samples here. The two samples at the top were made like above. At the bottom I also added the EEF paper white shift at 160 Megalux hours from the AaI_20090510_SN009Lf.pdf fade test result. Sure I have my reservations too on soft proofing but then print the image on EEF that it suits your taste in the 5000 K viewing light and look at it in 3200 K tungsten light and in shaded daylight, not to mention some fluorescent lamps. The eye will adapt to the paper white but that image will not be as nice. You can simulate that more or less with the samples here by filling the display with one sample, shut off the light in the studio.

An interesting other excercise, go to the Aardenburg Imaging test results and filter the tests on say an UV Delta-b influence shift more than 4 DeltaE. Then look at the actual "cool" numbers of the papers, the b number and add the b shift number then. Sure many are papers that are very cool and stay more or less cool after the shift but there others that are not that cool but pivot around neutral, the paper base is actually a warmer than neutral paper and OBA is added to shift them to cool, often only in the top layer. Now filter them on less than 4 DeltaE shift, there are still cool papers among the results but of course most neutral and warm papers in the filtered list. But they all will show more color constancy in practice. Then select the papers with the best fade resistance results. I have added a screenshot of a cool paper selection like that. (I did not check whether the lower CDR numbers were caused by ink patches or only the paper white but the last can not be that bad to create those numbers, check however in the PDFs themselves, the list can only become shorter). All RC papers, if you want durable cool quality and acceptable color constancy in changing light, it looks like some RC papers are the best choice then and not one of the Baryta, Fiber or matte art papers. Probable reason; both OBA and "bleached" paper are encapsulated between polyethylene layers that block oxygen etc that would degrade the paper components. It is a loss that the Canon Heavyweight Satin is no longer in the Canon catalog. Remains the question how good the mechanical properties of RC paper are, the bond of the PE barriers with paper and the inkjet coating, the stability of the PE itself. No independent institute has tested that aspect properly on modern RC papers. My gut feeling is that RC paper can be equal or even better on that aspect than what many consider the most stable papers.

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