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Author Topic: Hassy vs. Mamiya  (Read 9804 times)
JoeKitchen
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« on: December 26, 2012, 11:58:46 AM »
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Not discussing the back, is there a real difference in quality?

Would it be worth it to not get the Mamiya add-on when buying a Phase or Leaf Credo, finding a used H1 or H2 and than upgrading to a H4x?
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FredBGG
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2012, 12:35:53 PM »
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The Hasselblad bodies are better than Phase/Mamiya, but you will be limited to Hasselblad H lenses
and no focal plane shutter so your fastest shutter speed is 1/800th. Hasselblad prism finder is far better for the crop sensor
IQ140 because Hasselblad makes two types of prisms. One for full frame and one for crop frame.

However the H4X was principally designed to upgrade clients that had older backs and needed a replacement body.

There are problems with Aptus backs. Phase and Hasselblad have got into a pissing match blaming each other for the problem.

From Hasselblad
Quote
*Due to Leaf Aptus S & Aptus II not communicating within the specified protocol the H4X currently does not function with these two digital back models. Our investigations have concluded that this is due to parts of the communication from the digital back not being within specification, causing a fault condition and a lock-up of the camera body and digital back. The H4X platform is more accurate and sensitive and therefore detects the signals from the digital back as outside of specification.
All technical information has been passed on to Leaf and we are at their disposal to help rectify the problem. At present time we have not had any response from Leaf and therefore are not in a position to say when this will work.

From Phase (Ulf)
Quote
Hi

We have heard about this and it seem that the H4x communication does not match the communication from a H1 or H2 even if Hasselblad claims it does (Which you can see yourself since the back works on a H1)
Basically the only thing we can hope for fixes this problem through a firmware fix for the body.

End user follow up to the above ULF posting.
Quote
So, it is official. For anyone who owns a Leaf back prior to the Aptus II, Ziv Argov, the Director of Marketing and Product management has finally admitted, after doing a dance around my questions about my Aptus 75S not working on the Hasselblad H4X, that they (LEAF) will not be fixing the issues that exist with the firmware and the communication between older Leaf backs and the H4X camera. Ever. I quote " With the life cycle of an electronic device there's a point where its development has to stop and in the case of the Aptus 75S (which is what I understand you own) this happened back in 2008 when the Aptus-II was introduced. The new backs (Credo 40, 60 & 80) are supported, but also plan to enable support for the prior 3 released backs (aptus II)'

Mamiya Leaf does not list the H4X as compatible on their website
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/products_credo.asp

Quote
Under supported cameras:
Hasselblad: V-series (except for 200 and 2000 models), H1, H2
No mention of the H4X

Phase One on its IQ180 data sheet does not say it supports the H4X, just H1 and H2.

Personally I would stay away from a Hasselblad / MamiyaLeaf or Phase one mix.
Phase and Leaf can already be a problem to deal with as it is.. adding Hasselblad into the mix
would only complicate things. The fact that Phase and Leaf do not currently state H4X compatibility
on their websites would lead me to believe that if something comes up you would be on your own

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2012, 02:34:39 PM »
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I shoot Rollei Hy6 but have tried both the others and if I didn't have it as a choice, I'd definitely get the Hasselblad.   IMHO - The H4 is way better camera than the DF for many reasons including the better finder and actually just having a choice of finders, true focus, and other features.   The Mamiya DF suffers from long black out times between frames and has problems with mirror vibration shake even when on tripods.   
 
 
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lance_schad
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 02:49:59 PM »
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The H4x is a very nice body and works well with the Credo/IQ series, but it is very expensive to get into compared to the DF+ bundles that are being offered with digital back purchases from Mamiya and Phase One. You need to trade in a H1/H2 body (about $1500) and pay a minimum of $5695, you will also need a Viewfinder and purchase a rechargeable grip. So you are looking at an investment of about $7,695 (give or take a few dollars) for a Body Only.

Whereas a bundled DF+/80MM LS lens when purchased as a bundle with a Mamiya or Phase One back is between $3500 and $5000 complete depending on bundle type.

Since it seems that most of your work will be Architecture and its seems you will most likely be using a Tech Cam (as you have stated in your previous threads) here are some things to consider:

The PhaseOne/Mamiya Platform can work with both Focal Plane and Leaf Shutter lenses. There are a plethora of lenses available for this platform of varying vintages and available on the new and used market.

The wide angle offerings and wide angle zoom offerings on the Hasselblad Platform (24mm/28mm-35mm-90mm) do not cover the whole frame of the 60/80MP (54mm x 40mm) sensors they were designed for 33x44 and 37x49 sensors.

By staying with an all Phase One or Mamiya solution you can be assured there will interoperability between the body and back.


Lance



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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »
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As a user of the:

AFDIII, DF, H1 and H3DII the Hasselblad is the better camera. Modular, more 'fun' to use.

I like the fact you can really pull the Hassy body apart for cleaning.

For slower work the RZ67 is pretty unbeatable though. In every case you can't go wrong with the glass on either.
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JV
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 03:52:44 PM »
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I use a P30+ back on a Hasselblad H4X.  It is a very good combination.  There are no problems.

As far as I know the H4X works well with any Phase One back.  Initial issues with the IQ backs were addressed through firmware updates.  The combination is said to be stable now.

As mentioned above the Hasselblad H4X does not work at all with Leaf Aptus S and Leaf Aptus II backs.

Phase/Leaf should list the H4x as a supported platform on their websites.  In my opinion it is pretty lame of them not to do so. 
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JoeKitchen
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 05:09:20 PM »
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To be honest, I really could care less and will rarely ever shoot with a DSLR when going MF (tech camera is where I want to be).  However, my girlfriend is a food and "restaurant lifestyle" photographer.  We presently share (and share in the cost) a good deal of equipment.  Although we plan on both getting a MF system, I would be the first (been in business about 3 years longer) and just wonder if Hassy is actually worth it for her type of work.  If so, I feel that it would not make sense to get a Mamiya system if she is just eventually going to get a Hassy.  She is fixated on the Hassy camera but would rather have a Phase or Leaf back. 
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evgeny
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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2012, 05:26:34 PM »
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Take into account that a women will not be able to handheld the Mamiya DF camera for more than 60 seconds.
The Mamiya with two sets of batteries, lens and digital back is much heavier than a complete H4D camera with a lens of similar focal length.
Your choice is easy, if you want to share equipment with another photographer.
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JoeKitchen
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 05:36:51 PM »
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Take into account that a women will not be able to handheld the Mamiya DF camera for more than 60 seconds.
The Mamiya with two sets of batteries, lens and digital back is much heavier than a complete H4D camera with a lens of similar focal length.
Your choice is easy, if you want to share equipment with another photographer.
I think you should be thankful that this forum is very male dominated, but still something to consider. 
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Joe Kitchen
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lance_schad
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 06:06:10 PM »
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Your best bet is to do a head to head demo. We often do this for people on the fence as to which platform is for them.
We set up an H4x and DF+ with similars backs / lenses and let you try them each out.
Since it seems that you will not be using the wider lenses for your work then it comes down to personal preference and feel.
Being based here in the NY market our client base is mixed. It used to be more skewed towards Hassy as the platform of choice, but we have seen a great number of studios and photographers switch over to the Phase/Mamiya platform.
Again it boils down to whatever feels best to you .

Lance
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 06:41:00 PM »
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The H4x is a very nice body and works well with the Credo/IQ series, but it is very expensive to get into compared to the DF+ bundles that are being offered with digital back purchases

I seriously doubt that H are more expensive.   Lance what's the price of that new DF+ body again?    I have found that Hasselblad is offering some great deals.   I have already too many cameras, but was tempted by the end of year deals Hasselblad is making on their CPO store.  Some camera+back+lens deals under $10k.   

btw - I am totally biased so my opinion is only that of myself, so best to demo them both for yourself.  In my case, using the DF for a week last year firmed up my opinion as I literally had nothing positive to say for the camera after using it.   I like the phase backs and use a Leaf back. 

One big factor besides the camera (and lens choice) is the software,  Phocus and Capture One, as that is part of the equation.  I use both regularly as I still feel they are better than LR4 and while I get around in both ok, I think C1 is easier. 
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Lacunapratum
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2012, 07:23:30 PM »
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Thought about Rolleiflex Hy6 or Pentax 645D? 

Both are great systems as well.  The Pentax is very well integrated, reasonably priced, and has a mix of nice older lenses and some outstanding new lenses.  There is a new model Hy6, it will allow to use the new Leaf Credo backs, and has an unparalleled set of lenses. 

Just a thought. 
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JoeKitchen
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2012, 07:47:34 PM »
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Thought about Rolleiflex Hy6 or Pentax 645D? 

Both are great systems as well.  The Pentax is very well integrated, reasonably priced, and has a mix of nice older lenses and some outstanding new lenses.  There is a new model Hy6, it will allow to use the new Leaf Credo backs, and has an unparalleled set of lenses. 

Just a thought. 

I very much like the Hy6 because of the true waist high view finder (which I find to much easier on the back when you are concerned about the perspective).  However it seems to be much more expensive than the Hassy and Mamiya with very little support in the U.S.  Not worth the price if you ask me, considering my main camera would be a tech camera.  (Should I mention I cringe at the thought of shooting handheld.) 
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Joe Kitchen
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 08:10:09 PM »
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I shoot my Hy6 handheld about 95% of the time. But everyone has their own method.  The problem with the Mamiya is it still can suffer from mirror shake shooting on a tripod unless you mirror up and wait.    The Hy6 / AFi is very good wrt mirror dampening.    It's probably the best or one of the best MF cameras to shoot handheld since the mirror is so well damped.  I very often shoot at 1/30 and sometimes as slow as 1/15.   I don't even use the mirror up, but a button is by your thumb in case you want it.   Everyone says this is an expensive platform but in truth I'm not sure sure.  You'd pay more for a DF+ body new than you'd pay for a Hy6 new. Same goes with lenses, I think the new prices are about the same for any of the systems - Leica S even higher.  Just buy direct from the factory, DHW.   If you buy from B&H or one of the other vendors like 9 days HK, you'd pay more since DHW doesn't give anyone any deals unless of course you ask. :-)  It takes about 3 days once you've paid to get your items and regarding service, yes, its an issue, but service is faster than Leica for sure.  The great thing about the AFi is that you can use Capture One software and as was pointed out, a very good lens system.  Plenty of quality lenses on the second hand market, too.

if you want a cheap and good camera with a nice WLF, the Mamiya RZ is hard to beat.  Of course this is pretty primitive compared to H4 or HY6 but what else can you get into where the lenses can be found for under $200?
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 10:27:32 PM »
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I use a phase one back with 4 by 5 camera for still-life(food) photography. I use the hassel H2 with HC 120(usually) and a phase one back, as the second camera. For me, this is a very good set-up for the still-life photography. I had a phaseone camera before, and moved on to Hassel. Maybe more money and hassle to change it, but I like the feel of Hassel camera. This feel is very important as we all know...You should try it for yourself. I like capture one software very much. Personal opinion only, of course.
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evgeny
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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 01:28:58 AM »
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I think you should be thankful that this forum is very male dominated, but still something to consider.  

Male often talk about technical specifications. You will like the wide angle Hasselblad 24mm, 28mm lenses and tilt-shift HTS 1.5 adapter for your interior/architecture photography.
The HTS adapter is in my wish list as well.
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lance_schad
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 02:27:43 AM »
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I seriously doubt that H are more expensive.   Lance what's the price of that new DF+ body again?    I have found that Hasselblad is offering some great deals.   I have already too many cameras, but was tempted by the end of year deals Hasselblad is making on their CPO store.  Some camera+back+lens deals under $10k.   

btw - I am totally biased so my opinion is only that of myself, so best to demo them both for yourself.  In my case, using the DF for a week last year firmed up my opinion as I literally had nothing positive to say for the camera after using it.   I like the phase backs and use a Leaf back. 

One big factor besides the camera (and lens choice) is the software,  Phocus and Capture One, as that is part of the equation.  I use both regularly as I still feel they are better than LR4 and while I get around in both ok, I think C1 is easier. 

Eric,
Yes the regular prices between the H4x (with trade in Body) and DF+ Body only are similar:
H4x Body Only $5,695 (requires trade in of H1/H2 body and you need a VF)
So lets say you do not owen a H1/H2 to trade average cost to purchase a used on w/ VF is $1500
Total outlay for H4X body: $7,195

Phase One DF+ Body only: $5990
Phase One DF+ Body / 80mm LS Lens when purchased with a Refurbished System (during winter Promo ) $3500
Phase One DF+ Body / 80mm LS Lens when purchased with a new or upgrade/trade in $4,000 to $5000

So the Phase One is priced more attractive in all scenarios.

I think if we look at the bundled systems H4D 31,40,50,60 the H4D body you get is probably in the same range as the Phase One DF+;s,
but these bodies cannot be used with anything besides that particular back.

We do have clients who do prefer the H4x and we find them an H1/H2 to trade in . They do not mind paying a premium because they like that system.

So it comes back to you do have options when you are using a MamiyaLeaf or PhaseOne Digital Back.

Lance

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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 02:43:47 AM »
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Lance,
You are up late!   Smiley

Thanks for the info.  I am surprised to find out that the Hy6/AFi is actually cheaper than either DF or H4 if bought directly from the factory. Wow!  Most of the kits you'll see include a film back but it's not necessary to order it with that.

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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 03:27:14 AM »
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Why not buy a used and guaranteed H3D or H4D camera and back from the Pro Centre in London (a Hasselblad subsidiary).  They have an H3D-2-39 for just under 5000  or an H4D-40 for 7495 and they both include 39/40 MP backs.  It seems to me to be a much better deal than a P1 plus back or an H2 to H4X plus P1 back.
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 08:32:43 AM »
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Lance,
You are up late!   Smiley

Thanks for the info.  I am surprised to find out that the Hy6/AFi is actually cheaper than either DF or H4 if bought directly from the factory. Wow!  Most of the kits you'll see include a film back but it's not necessary to order it with that.

Not to be overlooked in the Hy6 system is the excellent focus confirmation, allowing use of the PQ lenses back to the 1990s, and quite avail on the used market. I have a full stable of them (as do several other friends) and they are quite compatible and sharp with current digital backs. Lots of flexibility.
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