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Author Topic: Hassy vs. Mamiya  (Read 13654 times)
EricWHiss
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« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2012, 05:15:45 PM »
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My dreadful experience with my leaf AFI taught me not to avoid a camera system that is cobbled together by different manufacturers, who seem not to talk to each other. When something goes wrong, they blame each other rather than trying to work things out.

You keep posting this about the AFi, and I have to keep posting that your experience is unique and whatever problems you had are not the average experience with this platform.  You come across like Fred and his issues with Mamiya.    Ok you had a 'dreadful' experience but the AFi is not dreadful - its fantastic!   
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FredBGG
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« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2012, 05:47:10 PM »
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uh huh. Private jets don't land where I go. And I buy all of my gear. No need to make those incorrect remarks.

Oops private planes not private jets.
Never said you didn't buy your own gear, please don't try to imply that I said you didn't.
Said you teamed up with Phase One to supply you and thus to your customers Phase One gear at below camera rental market prices.

Quote
I have teamed up with Phase One and I am running a trip to Namibia alongside good friends Bill Atkinson and Kevin Raber. If you donít already own Phase One medium format equipment, thatís totally ok, as Phase One will be providing cameras and lenses for all participants for a *very* nominal fee of $500.

http://www.theglobalphotographer.com/the-global-photographer/tag/phase-one

http://www.andybiggs.com/content.php?page=2012-09-Namibia

You are also a PODAS instructor working for Phase One.

I think that it is fair for forum reader to know when information about cameras (especially praise) comes from people very closely associated with the manufacturers
or that work for them. While it qualifies the statements made it also sheds some light on the possibility of the comments being
some what impartial.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 05:51:51 PM by FredBGG » Logged
abiggs
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« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2012, 05:50:51 PM »
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Absolutely. The PODAS trip that I lead for them included a Phase One camera system for the duration of the trip. Absolutely true. I took up medium format way before that trip and they asked me to help run a trip for them. Pretty straight forward.
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Andy Biggs
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Paul2660
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« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2012, 05:59:27 PM »
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Fred:

I think that quote is for the Namibia Podas class.   Kevin attends all the Podas classes.  I also believe the 500 dollar cost is standard for all Podas classes however its normally just included in the purchase price of the class.  

However Andy may be structuring another class besides the Podas in Nambia but I thought I remember reading on phaseone's site that Bill Atkinson was attending the Nambia Podas.

Paul



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Paul Caldwell
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abiggs
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« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2012, 06:02:10 PM »
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Paul, you are correct. I run trips to Namibia most years. My next pair of trips will be in April/May of 2014 and it won't be a PODAS trip.

Ok, back to the topic at hand..
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Andy Biggs
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2012, 08:32:24 PM »
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Absolutely. The PODAS trip that I lead for them included a Phase One camera system for the duration of the trip. Absolutely true. I took up medium format way before that trip and they asked me to help run a trip for them. Pretty straight forward.

As most of the instructors have been in MF and Phase gear long before being instructors on PODAS events. I may add like Andy most of us do our own workshops completely separate from PODAS. We are basically hired guns in our respective fields as instructors for those events. None of us work directly for Phase. I'm also a PODAS instructor and I also am partners to run GetDPI workshops. I also do one on one workshops as well. Hmmm that makes me working for hire. That's makes it we are doing shooting gigs and/or instructing gigs. Almost all of us do both.

Kevin Raber is the lead on all PODAS events as he and phase one staff organize there events.



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FredBGG
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« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2012, 09:27:03 PM »
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Geez, this gets old.

Fred, I am an African wildlife photographer. I spend many months of my year outdoors in wide open Land Rovers. Heat. Dust. Humidity. My gear gets banged around a bunch. I shoot with a DF, a bunch of Phase and Mamiya lenses ranging from 28mm all the way up to a manual focus Mamiya 300mm f/2.8 APO. I have an IQ160 back.

Everything works for me. I am a satisfied customer. You obviously weren't. You moved on. We get it. The horse is dead and we are tired of your rants. Go out and use whatever equipment you own and make compelling photographs that stir the soul.

Yup lets get back on topic and your post pretty much endorsing the DF and IQ160 for shooting in the Heat, Dust and Humidity in situations where your gear gets banged around a bunch. I have shot in dusty deserts, windy beaches and sand pits. I have also lived in Africa where I was born. A non weather sealed camera like the DF, it's lenses and removable backs are not designed for these environments.

You say it all works for you, but as of the end of October you had only used this rig for one trip to Africa.

I just want to chime in here for quick second. I spend about 3 months every year out in the African bush, and I am currently shooting with an IQ160 with the following lenses:

28mm
45mm
80mm
75-150mm
300mm f/2.8 APO (manual focus)
2x TC

I have only been on 1 trip to Africa with this rig so far, and I have many opinions on the matter. First of all, ISO 200 really is the limit for me with the IQ160. ISO 400 works, but only if there is ample light and the exposure is dead on. The 300mm APO is a super amazing lens, but manually focusing isn't very enjoyable. I am picking up the 300mm f/4.5 so I have something I can use most of the time.

I am more likely to use 35mm (like a D800) for long lens work and my IQ160 for things that I can shoot with my 75-150mm, and that will make a great combination.

Feel free to email me at andybiggs@gmail.com or we can arrange a call if you have any questions. I am very happy to share what I have learned so far.

While this experience has it's validity for how the camera preformed IQ wise, but hardly long enough to see how these environmental conditions would effect the camera over time and when used in these conditions for more than a few days. Fine dust works it's way into everything that is not specifically designed with weather seals.
I think you are a bit over enthusiastic about the DF as far as weather and environmental hardiness goes.

Pentax on the other hand has far more advanced weather sealing as do the lenses for it.

http://youtu.be/7wPD1wRpels

http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw





 
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abiggs
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2012, 09:37:52 PM »
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On that trip I was away for a month, split between wildlife shooting in Botswana's Okavango Delta and the remote deserts of Namibia. And I have shot with Phase One gear on other outdoor trips since 2004 and haven't had any major issues to deal with.

Don't belittle me. It isn't becoming of you. I replied to the thread that your rants get old, and now you turn your attention to me and my word.

This is the end of my contributions to threads you are a part of.
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Andy Biggs
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Kitty
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« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2012, 10:26:20 PM »
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Just want to share my experience. My H1 and H2 works very well with P31+, P45+, P65+ and IQ160.
P65+ may not work very well in heat. IQ160 is too new never have any problem yet.
No compatibility issue. Just H body is not very tough. Shutter died every 30-50K actuation.
I heard there is some issue with H body and new Leaf. Never try it.
I still prefer H body and H lens. May be because I get used to and invest on too much.

I really like to upgrade to H4X but cost too much and need to trade one body.
Not sure about shutter actuation life. Is it better than H1/2?
And repairing cost is very high.
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Lacunapratum
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« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2012, 10:53:46 PM »
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I'd like to echo Eric's comments on the quality of the Hy6.  Overall it's a top camera platform and the folks in Braunschweig know how to service them.  Quality is excellent, and for those few issues that come up over the years, service is truly excellent.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2012, 11:26:25 PM »
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Hi Fred,

It seems that things work well for Andy, that is what he says. Nothing wrong with that. Reliability is pretty much about statistics, if you happen the be the outlier you are in desparate need of good service. On the other with some luck things just work.

What I really don't like is arguing about peoples credibility. You seem to have the opinion that everyone who uses Phase one and works with Phase on PODAS is partial to Phase and therefore lacks credibility. That approach essentially says that the more experience you have the less credible you are, because of involvement. It is quite probable that all of us are partial to:

- The things of choice
- Stuff that works
- Stuff that failed

Things that fail may give stuff bad reputation, but a good vendor can help that to some extent by providing god service/assistance.

You perhaps recall Michael Reichmann's latest expedition to the Antartica where 6 weather sealed Canond 5DII-s failed, also failed have a few Leicas and a Nikon did not survive confrontation with a rock. Sonys and Phase One's worked just fine. At least I person (my best friend) did not buy the Canon 5DII because of the badwill those failures caused. Canon could say, "Hi awfully sorry, we send you a new camera!", but they did not.

Similarly, Michael Reichmann was a bit p_____d of when his Hasselblad H zoom fell apart in Namibia. It was found that many owners of the same lens fared similar. Hasselblad choose to put the blame on the owners. They could just say "Hi awfully sorry, we send you a new lens!", but they did not.

By the way, I have seen a lot of your postings on different threads, they are most helpful.

Best regards
Erik

Yup lets get back on topic and your post pretty much endorsing the DF and IQ160 for shooting in the Heat, Dust and Humidity in situations where your gear gets banged around a bunch. I have shot in dusty deserts, windy beaches and sand pits. I have also lived in Africa where I was born. A non weather sealed camera like the DF, it's lenses and removable backs are not designed for these environments.

You say it all works for you, but as of the end of October you had only used this rig for one trip to Africa.

While this experience has it's validity for how the camera preformed IQ wise, but hardly long enough to see how these environmental conditions would effect the camera over time and when used in these conditions for more than a few days. Fine dust works it's way into everything that is not specifically designed with weather seals.
I think you are a bit over enthusiastic about the DF as far as weather and environmental hardiness goes.

Pentax on the other hand has far more advanced weather sealing as do the lenses for it.

http://youtu.be/7wPD1wRpels

http://youtu.be/Eo61t5fH6Qw





 

« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 11:32:35 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

abiggs
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« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2012, 11:29:51 PM »
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Similarly, Michael Reichmann was a bit p_____d of when his Hasselblad H zoom fell apart in Namibia.

Oh my, I remember that moment. Michael and I were co-running that Namibia trip back in April 2006. Yes, it was a 'noteworthy' moment, indeed.
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Andy Biggs
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2012, 11:45:02 PM »
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Forums are difficult places to collect statistics, because when something does go wrong for whatever reason, you hear it loudly on the forums, but for every complainer, there may be hundreds or thousands of people happily shooting away with the same product.   You just can't say what the error rate is from listening to the forums.  

When someone like Michael notes an issue, I tend to believe it.  He clearly states his position and has been very careful to note both good and bad on all items he reviews.  He does not jump from a problem with a piece of gear to a flaw in manufacturing or worse automatically.   I think he's very fair.  However this is not true for some posters.  You have to factor in their angle if you can.  I mean if you read a report that walnuts are healthy for you and then you find out that the Walnut growers association sponsored the study....      

Also even though most complainers will assure the forum public that the fault lies truly with the manufacture, you can't rule out that they fubar'd the thing themselves and just didn't realize it.   One infamous LuLa poster who constantly attacks Phase/Mamiya has gone as far as using the 'conspiracy' word, but maybe he just bumped his poor Mamiya DF with his size 15 feet that he boasts about frequently and just didn't realize it?   Cheesy
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 11:59:31 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2012, 12:24:14 AM »
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Hi,

The way I'm thinking is that there is perhaps 7 cameras of 100 breaking down. That makes for 14 happy owners and for each unhappy one. Or you drop that camera on concrete and it survives without damage. That makes for a happy owner.  So that makes for a sad owner who may post and a happy owner who also may post, than there is a silent majority who has no reason to post.

Best regards
Erik

Forums are difficult places to collect statistics, because when something does go wrong for whatever reason, you hear it loudly on the forums, but for every complainer, there may be hundreds or thousands of people happily shooting away with the same product.   You just can't say what the error rate is from listening to the forums.  

When someone like Michael notes an issue, I tend to believe it.  He clearly states his position and has been very careful to note both good and bad on all items he reviews.  He does not jump from a problem with a piece of gear to a flaw in manufacturing or worse automatically.   I think he's very fair.  However this is not true for some posters.  You have to factor in their angle if you can.  I mean if you read a report that walnuts are healthy for you and then you find out that the Walnut growers association sponsored the study....      

Also even though most complainers will assure the forum public that the fault lies truly with the manufacture, you can't rule out that they fubar'd the thing themselves and just didn't realize it.   One infamous LuLa poster who constantly attacks Phase/Mamiya has gone as far as using the 'conspiracy' word, but maybe he just bumped his poor Mamiya DF with his size 15 feet that he boasts about frequently and just didn't realize it?   Cheesy
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2012, 12:41:39 AM »
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Hi,
The way I'm thinking is that there is perhaps 7 cameras of 100 breaking down. That makes for 14 happy owners and for each unhappy one. Or you drop that camera on concrete and it survives without damage. That makes for a happy owner.  So that makes for a sad owner who may post and a happy owner who also may post, than there is a silent majority who has no reason to post.
Best regards
Erik

Erik,
That's totally silly. You have no real data to conclude anything from.  You know the old joke about the word 'assume'?   Just break it up... When you 'assume' you make an 'ass' of 'u' and 'me' and this whole thread too.  Grin

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2012, 02:10:46 AM »
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Hi,

It was never intended to be realistic just illustrate how probabilities work. We now that most equipment work but sometimes you are out of lock. When that happens much depends on how the vendor handles the situation.

By the way, Lensrentals do publish some statistics on both repairs and failures: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/09/lensrentals-repair-data-january-july-2012

Most cameras seem to have around 10% repair rate, very often due to bent pins on CF sockets. Average repair cost on Nikon (lenses and cameras) 376$. Tamron fastest on repairs and no costs.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that if you have probabilities against you and get little help you are going to be a dissatisfied customer.

Best regards
Erik
Erik,
That's totally silly. You have no real data to conclude anything from.  You know the old joke about the word 'assume'?   Just break it up... When you 'assume' you make an 'ass' of 'u' and 'me' and this whole thread too.  Grin


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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2012, 02:22:30 AM »
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Erik,
I knew you'd find a way to work DSLR's into another MF thread!  j/k.    But lensrental data is DSLR and includes that caused by human error (or big feet?).
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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2012, 02:43:52 AM »
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Hi,

Lens rentals are rent MF equipment but they publish no statistics for MF (I guess due to low numbers).

The intention was simply to illustrate that there are some statistics. Quite obviously, we have some posters who had bad fortune, but it seems most poster are happy.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,
I knew you'd find a way to work DSLR's into another MF thread!  j/k.    But lensrental data is DSLR and includes that caused by human error (or big feet?).

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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2012, 04:00:52 AM »
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We would never know real stats on repairs and issues unless it came from the factories repair dept. themselves. Bottom line every system will have have failures or need firmware adjustments in its life cycle just like any software you will buy. I have owned almost every system out there and at some point either something went wrong or needed a update to fix a ongoing issue. I owned Leica M8s that spent months and yes that was plural in Solms and yes that was both cams I owned, without loaners from Leica I was dead in the water. These new D800s not mentioned anywhere here have a serious left side AF issue. My first D800 went in for repair. Luckily I don't use that side anyway the way I shoot. But anyway you can go through every brand out in the market and its just unfortunate that there are problems with every system. My biggest issue with the DF was a freeze up that happened during a certain time frame of its life cycle. A change in firmware and a change in rechargeable batteries cleared that up to a very rare occurrence. My D800e has frozen up 3 times now. No obvious reason either. Turn off back on and seems to recover.

Message here shit happens to them all. Our goal and our job as shooters is always be ready and  prepared for any issue that comes along and have a work around. Stats from forums are inconsistent because its mostly we here of complaints never the its work fine comments as such because what's the point to say its okay for you. Some of us get unlucky and have serious problems. Not fun I admit but its also a lot of user error issues as well and always will be. People buy used gear and expect it to perform as it was bought new. Lets be honest folks we put stuff on eBay cause we don't want to sell it to our forum friends. Remember I own a forum I see this all the time, the crap goes to eBay the nice Leica M 9 goes on LL and GetDPI sales forums. LOL

People also with MF have the nice option which we don't get elsewhere with other systems is having the dealer interface to deal with our issues. I find that a very nice option to call CI or DT and say guys handle this for me for the gear I bought there.

We will never solve the camera, software, reliability issue 100 percent of the time. That's totally unrealistic thinking. All we can do is do our homework when making purchases and listening to folks that have ACTUALLY BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT to get some perspective. Most comments I read are speculative or heavily sided and usually to the negative as most folks with positive experience simply just don't post all is good in the world. It's usually it's what is wrong with it. Unfortunately that is the slant of forums sometimes is a place to vent. Bad stuff happens and you get to say something which is fine also as long as the data is not slanted.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 04:05:51 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2012, 05:08:52 AM »
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+1

Yes, I heard about the issues with Nikon D800/D800E seems that Nikon needs to improve both quality control and repairs.

Best regards
Erik



We would never know real stats on repairs and issues unless it came from the factories repair dept. themselves. Bottom line every system will have have failures or need firmware adjustments in its life cycle just like any software you will buy. I have owned almost every system out there and at some point either something went wrong or needed a update to fix a ongoing issue. I owned Leica M8s that spent months and yes that was plural in Solms and yes that was both cams I owned, without loaners from Leica I was dead in the water. These new D800s not mentioned anywhere here have a serious left side AF issue. My first D800 went in for repair. Luckily I don't use that side anyway the way I shoot. But anyway you can go through every brand out in the market and its just unfortunate that there are problems with every system. My biggest issue with the DF was a freeze up that happened during a certain time frame of its life cycle. A change in firmware and a change in rechargeable batteries cleared that up to a very rare occurrence. My D800e has frozen up 3 times now. No obvious reason either. Turn off back on and seems to recover.

Message here shit happens to them all. Our goal and our job as shooters is always be ready and  prepared for any issue that comes along and have a work around. Stats from forums are inconsistent because its mostly we here of complaints never the its work fine comments as such because what's the point to say its okay for you. Some of us get unlucky and have serious problems. Not fun I admit but its also a lot of user error issues as well and always will be. People buy used gear and expect it to perform as it was bought new. Lets be honest folks we put stuff on eBay cause we don't want to sell it to our forum friends. Remember I own a forum I see this all the time, the crap goes to eBay the nice Leica M 9 goes on LL and GetDPI sales forums. LOL

People also with MF have the nice option which we don't get elsewhere with other systems is having the dealer interface to deal with our issues. I find that a very nice option to call CI or DT and say guys handle this for me for the gear I bought there.

We will never solve the camera, software, reliability issue 100 percent of the time. That's totally unrealistic thinking. All we can do is do our homework when making purchases and listening to folks that have ACTUALLY BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT to get some perspective. Most comments I read are speculative or heavily sided and usually to the negative as most folks with positive experience simply just don't post all is good in the world. It's usually it's what is wrong with it. Unfortunately that is the slant of forums sometimes is a place to vent. Bad stuff happens and you get to say something which is fine also as long as the data is not slanted.


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