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Author Topic: Hassy vs. Mamiya  (Read 12464 times)
Rob C
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« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2012, 05:33:00 AM »
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I hate it when this happens in threads between people I like.

I have no horse in this current bloody race and the closest I can come to complaints is with my beloved 500 Series, where a body seized up solid during an IWS shoot in Malta, and the hotel's man-at-the-desk sent me to a watchmaker in Valletta, a certain Mr Zamit, who proceeded to strip away the covering from around the winding knob and remove some parts to discover that a white plastic washer or circlip had broken. He fashioned a replacement from what I think was some sort of spring wire, and I never - or a least the camera - never looked back. Hasselblad employed plastic on moving parts? The only other flaw was that the tiny, delayed action slider lever on some of the lenses - mainly the 50mm - quite often ceased working and I lost use of the lens for ages each time.

The amusing side? As he was about to strip away the skin from the camera, Mr Zamit smiled, looked at me and said: you're a little uncertain, aren't you? After the event, I could have hugged him. Would I have used an amateur watchmaker? Best not go there or draw parallels.

Rob C
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Paul2660
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« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2012, 07:21:52 AM »
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Back to Topic:

I have used the mamiya AFD II, III and phase DF on a p45+ and IQ 160.  My thoughts since using the gear in the field since 2008.

Pros:
Built like a tank
Good grip and feel in the hand
slow but most often accurate AF when the supplied 3 AF points work into the shot
good battery life with nimh AA's with latest firmware for body
Never any sync issues with the back


Cons:
Viewfinder to me was always hard to manually focus.  Plenty large but I found coming from a canon setup and. Zork adapter where I always had to manually focus much harder to achieve reliable focus.  Even with the focus loupe which goes in front of the eyepiece. 

Mirror slap and vibration, there are some lenses mainly the med to long telephoto that you cannot use certain shutter speeds due to vibration.  Example 210mm at 1/30 of a sec even on tripod.

Shutter slap/mirror slap issue when camera is vertical on tripod.  Even with mirror lock there are vibration issues with the shutter. Especially noticed when shooting longer exposures.  This issue has been noted more than once on this site.

With a leaf shutter lens you still have to fire both the focal plane and leaf shutter so vibration issues are still possible.

Lack of a modern multi point AF SYSTEM and for the price point of the body this is a big deal. The DF+ seems from reports to acquire faster with more accuracy but it still only has the 3 points right together which might as well be one.

Lenses:

On the mamiya brand the wides are poor 28mm and 35mm mainly due loss of corners i.e. the 28 make a great 35 and the 35 makes a great 45 after you crop out the corners.  The 55mm is stellar.  All the rest of the newer Mamiya D lenses have nothing but great reports.  150mm 75-150mm 45mm and the old non D glass can be excellent like the 210mm. 

It seems the new phase Schneider leaf shutter lenses are very good however until recently your widest solution was the 55mm.  The new 28mm leaf from the test reports I have read shares many of the short falls of the older non LS phase/mamiya 28.  Reports shown on digital transitions website show the 2 are pretty close optically. 

I still own a DF but switched to a tech camera for the wides as most of my work is outdoors and not tethered and the improvements in sharpness with the tech lenses was worth it.   

Never have used any Hassy gear.

One other note capture one is a big plus for the phase raw especially with vr7.  I only wish canon and Nikon would invest the time for their files. 

Paul




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Paul Caldwell
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2012, 10:57:56 AM »
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Back to Topic:

I have used the mamiya AFD II, III and phase DF on a p45+ and IQ 160.  My thoughts since using the gear in the field since 2008.

Pros:
Built like a tank
Good grip and feel in the hand
slow but most often accurate AF when the supplied 3 AF points work into the shot
good battery life with nimh AA's with latest firmware for body
Never any sync issues with the back


Cons:
Viewfinder to me was always hard to manually focus.  Plenty large but I found coming from a canon setup and. Zork adapter where I always had to manually focus much harder to achieve reliable focus.  Even with the focus loupe which goes in front of the eyepiece.  

Mirror slap and vibration, there are some lenses mainly the med to long telephoto that you cannot use certain shutter speeds due to vibration.  Example 210mm at 1/30 of a sec even on tripod.

Shutter slap/mirror slap issue when camera is vertical on tripod.  Even with mirror lock there are vibration issues with the shutter. Especially noticed when shooting longer exposures.  This issue has been noted more than once on this site.

With a leaf shutter lens you still have to fire both the focal plane and leaf shutter so vibration issues are still possible.

Lack of a modern multi point AF SYSTEM and for the price point of the body this is a big deal. The DF+ seems from reports to acquire faster with more accuracy but it still only has the 3 points right together which might as well be one.

Lenses:

On the mamiya brand the wides are poor 28mm and 35mm mainly due loss of corners i.e. the 28 make a great 35 and the 35 makes a great 45 after you crop out the corners.  The 55mm is stellar.  All the rest of the newer Mamiya D lenses have nothing but great reports.  150mm 75-150mm 45mm and the old non D glass can be excellent like the 210mm.  

It seems the new phase Schneider leaf shutter lenses are very good however until recently your widest solution was the 55mm.  The new 28mm leaf from the test reports I have read shares many of the short falls of the older non LS phase/mamiya 28.  Reports shown on digital transitions website show the 2 are pretty close optically.  

I still own a DF but switched to a tech camera for the wides as most of my work is outdoors and not tethered and the improvements in sharpness with the tech lenses was worth it.  

Never have used any Hassy gear.

One other note capture one is a big plus for the phase raw especially with vr7.  I only wish canon and Nikon would invest the time for their files.  

Paul






+1 although I will add the 28mm is more like a 31mm and the 35mm is more like a 42mm on Full Frame sensors. On the P40 size sensors and on P45 size its pretty much a non issue with corners. One feature never mentioned is in C1 there is corner sharpness adjustments that do work very well and folks should actually try that. The old 35mm Mamiya lens there is sample variation and been through about 3 of them to get a really good one. All the LS glass is really nice and a lot of the D glass is as well. Not mentioned often is the 300mm AF 4.5 lens which is very well priced and actually quite good/

Again the older Afd II and III are just okay as bodies. Very delayed shutter release and i did have one major failure on a AFDIII. The DF is a lot better in many respects but again the battery issue was well known until some firmware and we figured out better working rechargeable. The DF Plus is said to improve all of these minor annoyances but I have yet to test that. On a scale between the Hassy bodies and Phase bodies I think its a wash at the end of the day. Maybe a slight edge to Hassy but it was never very comfortable to me. When it comes to lenses I think they fair very well together as long as we are talking the more modern D and LS glass. Some of the older lenses are just okay and some very good. To me its a hit and miss and I kind of avoided the old ones in a way. Although the 80 1.9 is got a interesting look to it.
One to the backs i can only truly speak of Phase i owned 5 of them and they are just stellar in almost every respect. Built like tanks and the IQ series is lights out on everyone else PERIOD. Credo is new and also very nice as it emulates a lot of the IQ , something I would look at if I was buying. Hassy has done nothing to improve there functionality in the backs so still old style in my opinion but still very good backs. I try not to speak to much of hassy as i only have shot it a couple of times so i don't want to speculate or sound unfair. They make great systems and you would not have to twist my arm too much to own one. The HY6 body i know there are folks that love them and good for them. It just felt way to awkward for me but again i don't own one so my comments are from a casual use.

The original question which one really comes down to doing your homework on your needs and what fits you the best. You can only determine that by trying both. End of day they both produce amazing image quality so thats only a small factor we all know they are good there. Its the ergos, functions , lens choices and system backup that you have to careful understand before jumping. I heard this before i spent 30k on a Hassy/Phase and no one told me it did not do this or that. My answer you need to do your homework and understand what your jumping into. Its really just that simple

One other very important point to make is the subject of bias towards a system. For many of us its just more a preference to what we like to work with and this word bias is used as a dirty word and I think it is extremely unfair to be calling or insinuating people are bias because they just happen to like something to work with or work with OEMs and or dealers. I honestly have no bias , I have flipped systems on a dime more times than i care to admit and maybe sometimes not the greatest decision but we all look for greener pastures in a system to help us improve our gear. Nothing wrong with that and we should but i sure as hell will not brand my forehead with a Leica logo either. ROTFLMAO

« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 11:14:57 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Paul2660
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« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2012, 11:41:27 AM »
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Guy good points,  I forgot about the use of those lenses on a cropped sensor and the use of Capture One corner sharpen.  The later I use on all files and it's very handy where as in LR you need to use a mask on the area you want to work on.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2012, 11:41:36 AM »
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Not discussing the back, is there a real difference in quality?

Would it be worth it to not get the Mamiya add-on when buying a Phase or Leaf Credo, finding a used H1 or H2 and than upgrading to a H4x?

So answering your question Joe. Overall they are very comparable. Some folks like the Phase backs ( myself included) but like working with a Hassy better over the Phase and vice versa. So you really have some options Hassy down the line with back , body and glass , Phase the same way than that 3rd option of mixing Phase with Hassy body and lenses. I suggest get with a dealer that has all three combos and see what fits you the best. Just like Hassy H body does not fit me so well it may fit you much better. Honestly never will know that until you hold them but each system has there pluses and minus which leads to no real answer since end of day its really a wash . It does come down to what compromises you can or cannot make on each system. Some things maybe are not essential to you and some maybe the nail in the coffin. But to say one is better than the other, I'm not so sure there is one better than the other until you makes choices that you need in a system.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2012, 12:34:52 PM »
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On the mamiya brand the wides are poor 28mm and 35mm mainly due loss of corners i.e. the 28 make a great 35 and the 35 makes a great 45 after you crop out the corners.  The 55mm is stellar.  All the rest of the newer Mamiya D lenses have nothing but great reports.  150mm 75-150mm 45mm and the old non D glass can be excellent like the 210mm. 

It seems the new phase Schneider leaf shutter lenses are very good however until recently your widest solution was the 55mm.  The new 28mm leaf from the test reports I have read shares many of the short falls of the older non LS phase/mamiya 28.  Reports shown on digital transitions website show the 2 are pretty close optically. 
Paul


There is absolutely no difference between Phase One "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses and Mamiya branded lenses that have equivalent models.
All the Mamiya LS lenses are the same design as the "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses. The Mamiya D lenses are the same as the Phase one non leaf shutter lenses. The only Schneider made lens for the Phase One is the tilt shift lens.
The biggest difference is the sales channel. Mamiya Leaf is sold also through Adorama and BH Photo so you can get much better prices than with Phase One Schneider Branded
lenses. (Best price is over the phone from both Adorama and BH).
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FredBGG
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« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2012, 12:54:14 PM »
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I shoot my Hy6 handheld about 95% of the time. But everyone has their own method.  The problem with the Mamiya is it still can suffer from mirror shake shooting on a tripod unless you mirror up and wait.    The Hy6 / AFi is very good wrt mirror dampening.    It's probably the best or one of the best MF cameras to shoot handheld since the mirror is so well damped.  I very often shoot at 1/30 and sometimes as slow as 1/15.   I don't even use the mirror up, but a button is by your thumb in case you want it.   Everyone says this is an expensive platform but in truth I'm not sure sure.  You'd pay more for a DF+ body new than you'd pay for a Hy6 new. Same goes with lenses, I think the new prices are about the same for any of the systems - Leica S even higher.  Just buy direct from the factory, DHW.   If you buy from B&H or one of the other vendors like 9 days HK, you'd pay more since DHW doesn't give anyone any deals unless of course you ask. :-)  It takes about 3 days once you've paid to get your items and regarding service, yes, its an issue, but service is faster than Leica for sure.  The great thing about the AFi is that you can use Capture One software and as was pointed out, a very good lens system.  Plenty of quality lenses on the second hand market, too.

How is shooting vertical (portrait) with the HY6 and Credo/IQ backs that don't have the rotating sensor?

Can the Credo or IQ be mounted vertically?

Is the 90 degree prism still available?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 01:34:54 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Paul2660
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« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2012, 01:11:22 PM »
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Best way to rotate on a DF is a L bracket like the ones from Kirk or really right stuff.  Unless you get the optional v grip. 

On a tech camera, Arca for example, you can easily rotate the back by just rotating the mount plate.  As I shoot about 50% vertical this was a big deal for me as I found the Arca the easiest to rotate in the field.


Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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bcooter
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« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2012, 01:51:27 PM »
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I've used Really Right Stuff L brackets and their ball heads for a long time.

I have one for almost every camera I own and their so smooth and intuitive that after a few sessions going vertical to horizontal becomes second nature.



If I used the DF I would especially use a RRS L plate since the Phase/Mamiya offesr a right angle grip.

IMO

BC


« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:59:06 AM by bcooter » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2012, 02:19:05 PM »
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There is absolutely no difference between Phase One "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses and Mamiya branded lenses that have equivalent models.
All the Mamiya LS lenses are the same design as the "Schneider branded" Mamiya made lenses. The Mamiya D lenses are the same as the Phase one non leaf shutter lenses. The only Schneider made lens for the Phase One is the tilt shift lens.
The biggest difference is the sales channel. Mamiya Leaf is sold also through Adorama and BH Photo so you can get much better prices than with Phase One Schneider Branded
lenses. (Best price is over the phone from both Adorama and BH).

Sorry to say the best price comes with working with your dealer that you buy your system from. Besides new you can buy demos, workshop leftovers or used from trade ins. Almost all of the glass I bought came from my dealer as he beat anything I could find elsewhere. Also I get full dealer support for everything I buy. As much as I love B&H and buy many things from them including my Nikon gear they do not handle repairs service or support. They only offer returns and replacements for a couple weeks . At least this has been my experience for the last 3 years or so shooting and buying Phase gear. My dealer usually beat anything around including e-bay which i will not buy much over 1k on ebay or what i am willing to lose on it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 06:34:41 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2012, 09:49:17 PM »
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Sorry to say the best price comes with working with your dealer that you buy your system from. Besides new you can buy demos, workshop leftovers or used from trade ins. Almost all of the glass I bought came from my dealer as he beat anything I could find elsewhere. Also I get full dealer support for everything I buy. As much as I love B&H and buy many things from them including my Nikon gear they do not handle repairs service or support. They only offer returns and replacements for a couple weeks . At least this has been my experience for the last 3 years or so shooting and buying Phase gear. My dealer usually beat anything around including e-bay which i will not buy much over 1k on ebay or what i am willing to lose on it.

Duh....BH does not sell Phase Gear. Phase One dealers also happen to sponsor your website/forum Wink Wink

Demo isn't new. Normally been handled by many people and "demo" equipment has a really loosely defined definition.

Repairs need to be done by the manufacturer. Either you send it in yourself or you can send it to your dealer.

If your a good customer with BH they make calls for you. When BH is the biggest camera dealer. No company wants to piss it off.
They have been helpful to me more than once. Even from Italy.

I once bought a camera from BH with international warranty. Italian distributor did not want to handle a warrany repair. BH rang up the company
and sorted things out in a beat.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 11:18:31 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2012, 09:58:19 PM »
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Best way to rotate on a DF is a L bracket like the ones from Kirk or really right stuff.  Unless you get the optional v grip. 

On a tech camera, Arca for example, you can easily rotate the back by just rotating the mount plate.  As I shoot about 50% vertical this was a big deal for me as I found the Arca the easiest to rotate in the field.


Paul

I had both the Kirk and the V-Grip. Nice thing about the v-grip bracket is that you can use it with or without the grip. However with the V-grip the thread in the bottom of the v-grip
is a bit weak and not solid... much like the vertical grip for the Canon 5D II
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2012, 11:18:25 PM »
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Duh....BH does not sell Phase Gear. Your dealers also happen to sponsor your website/forum Wink Wink

Demo isn't new. Normally been handled by many people and "demo" equipment has a really loosely defined definition.

Repairs need to be done by the manufacturer. Either you send it in yourself or you can send it to your dealer.

If your a good customer with BH they make calls for you. When BH is the biggest camera dealer. No company wants to piss it off.
They have been helpful to me more than once. Even from Italy.

I once bought a camera from BH with international warranty. Italian distributor did not want to handle a warrany repair. BH rang up the company
and sorted things out in a beat.


Once again you keep posting insinuating comments about people and there bias or whatever fits your fancy to post. With that Fred you should know I was a customer of CI years and a load of gear long before they advertise on our site. Once again you turn someone's post negative to go after Phase and anyone that actually uses them. Again your true colors are showing. Dave Galagher is also one of my best friends and damn happy he is. With that I bid this forum goodbye. With you around there is absolutely nothing I want to be involved with here. I will keep my decorum and not post what I really would like to say. But it's really not worth my time to be anywhere when negativity rules the day than helping people. Happy New Year to everyone else.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2012, 11:40:33 PM »
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Once again you keep posting insinuating comments about people and there bias or whatever fits your fancy to post. With that Fred you should know I was a customer of CI years and a load of gear long before they advertise on our site. Once again you turn someone's post negative to go after Phase and anyone that actually uses them. Again your true colors are showing. Dave Galagher is also one of my best friends and damn happy he is. With that I bid this forum goodbye. With you around there is absolutely nothing I want to be involved with here. I will keep my decorum and not post what I really would like to say. But it's really not worth my time to be anywhere when negativity rules the day than helping people. Happy New Year to everyone else.

I really don't see why this should upset you. I guessed you missed the wink icons.
You your self said it here. You are recommending your best friends. It likely that you get better service from your best friends.
That's perfectly normal.
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« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2012, 12:05:38 AM »
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Hello Fred,

Personally Fred you do have a propensity to piss people off. Iím not sure if you do it on purpose but be sure you do. Its a shame Guy has decided to leave the forum I just hope you donít alienate any more forum members to such an extent that they do the same.

Cheers

Simon
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FredBGG
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« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2012, 12:44:41 AM »
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Hello Fred,

Personally Fred you do have a propensity to piss people off. Iím not sure if you do it on purpose but be sure you do. Its a shame Guy has decided to leave the forum I just hope you donít alienate any more forum members to such an extent that they do the same.

Cheers

Simon

I simply pointed out that there is no difference between Phase One Schneider LS lenses and Mamiya LS lenses. Same design and made in the same factory.
I also pointed out that due to different sales channels you can get better prices from big dealers like Adorama and BH.

Despite the fact that just about everyone knows that BH and Adorama have the best prices in the USA for just about everything photographic
Guy chooses to say I'm wrong.

Sorry but I think it is helpful for readers to know that there are many recommendations on these forum are closely related to who
they are recommending. Readers can make their decisions keeping this in mind.

I also find it rather ironic that advocates of Phase One keep going on about how perfect and reliable the gear is, but then insist
that you need a value added dealer for support and repairs. Interesting that Guy chooses to buy his Nikons from BH Photo.

I'm just very matter of fact about this stuff.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 12:52:00 AM by FredBGG » Logged
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« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2012, 01:11:07 AM »
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Sorry but I think it is helpful for readers to know that there are many recommendations on these forum are closely related to who
they are recommending. Readers can make their decisions keeping this in mind.

Yeah ya know, that would work if we had half a clue who you are and what you do...but, you don't bother to provide that info.

Those people who post and use their real name (or at least post a URL) might get away with this sort of post...but you bud aren't one of those sort of people.

Who are you and what creds do you have?

Sorry if this has been asked/answered before but all I see from you is crap. So, are you a real photographer? Do you have a web site? Have you actually taken any useful images in your career?

Really, I want to know cause all I see is a butthead that seems to try to piss people off while hiding behind some sort of nothing-meaning screen name.

So...you got the balls to give us a web site and a real name?  Otherwise I would suggest Mike and Chris simply ban you (and your IP). Seems you've closed down more than your fair share of threads...

Who are you and why should we care? (odds are you'll puntĖbut we'll see).
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« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2012, 01:23:21 AM »
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Hi Fred,

I think you make some insinuations about posters being partial to Phase because of involvement. I would say that all posters have been quite clear about their cooperation with Phase.
I'm pretty sure that PODAS instructors are selected on grounds that they are highly regarded Phase users and also highly regarded photographers. If you check out Guy's web site you see that he has been there and done that.

In my experience, this forum always had a polite tone, having some respect for other posters.

In my view you Fred have posting a lot of good information on several threads, and also this one. Guy is also posting a lot of good information. Now, some information is good, some is bad and some is false. Photography is much about perception, and perception is not always true.

Another factor in this game are tolerances. It is easy to say if something is broken, much harder to tell if it works optimally.

Quite a few years ago Joseph Holmes published an article about precision issues with MFDBs "http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.htm", that was a while ago but I guess the information is still valid. One observation in that article was that used and rental backs were severely off in register distance. Phase tolerance is said to be 12 microns but as far as I recall Joseph has calculated the error to 150 microns in some cases. Those problems happen, and it is my understanding that a value added reseller can help with that. I guess that they may do some testing and send stuff that is not in good shape back to Phase for adjustment. If you have problems they help resolving, and I got the impression that almost all problems can be solved.

I'm pretty sure 135 equipment is not much better. Lloyd Chambers has found issues with most (?) of his Nikons. Zeiss is selling Comapct Prime lenses to the cine industry at ten times the prices for ZF 2.2 lenses. They are the same lenses, but in a different mount and I guess with tighter tolerances. Getting back to MFD, Lloyd Chambers had Hasselblad for testing on loan from B&H and one of the two lenses he had was badly decentered. One of the lenses for the Leica S2 he tested had an aperture malfunction.

In a sense, 135 must have tighter tolerances as they have wider aperture lenses. An f/1.4 lens requires half the tolerance compared to an f/2.8 lens (simple geometry).

Best regards
Erik


I simply pointed out that there is no difference between Phase One Schneider LS lenses and Mamiya LS lenses. Same design and made in the same factory.
I also pointed out that due to different sales channels you can get better prices from big dealers like Adorama and BH.

Despite the fact that just about everyone knows that BH and Adorama have the best prices in the USA for just about everything photographic
Guy chooses to say I'm wrong.

Sorry but I think it is helpful for readers to know that there are many recommendations on these forum are closely related to who
they are recommending. Readers can make their decisions keeping this in mind.

I also find it rather ironic that advocates of Phase One keep going on about how perfect and reliable the gear is, but then insist
that you need a value added dealer for support and repairs. Interesting that Guy chooses to buy his Nikons from BH Photo.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:26:47 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2012, 01:23:42 AM »
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Jeff,
He's Fred Greissing,  did some decent hollywood type photo work, maybe still does but I can't imagine anyone would want to work with a person who has his negativity dial set to 10 all the time.   It's a shame because his work looks like he'd have a lot of knowledge to share from his experiences but instead he wastes everyone's time with the negativity.  I'm ignoring him so maybe's he's ignoring me, but he's not taking any of the many hints people are giving him. 

« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:29:09 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2012, 01:29:55 AM »
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+1

Fred seems to make a lot of good postings on other threads. He seems to be somewhat partial Fuji 68GX, by the way.

Best regards
Erik

Jeff,
He's Fred Greissing,  did some decent hollywood type photo work, maybe still does, but is quickly loosing all respect he might have gotten with his attack posts. It's a shame because his work looks like he'd have a lot of knowledge to share from his experiences but instead he wastes everyone's time with the negativity.  
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