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Author Topic: Discussion of the use of yellow in B&W printing  (Read 1339 times)
dreed
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« on: December 30, 2012, 10:49:57 PM »
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I'm trying to chase down a web article that mentioned how and why yellow inks were used in the printing of greyscale images. I thought it was a review here on LL where it was mentioned that natural greys were used in place of yellow plus black but I can't find the review/essay easily. Does anyone else recall this?
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 06:27:06 AM »
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Maybe not the one you are looking for but this ONE does address Epson ABW printing and comments on the use of colored inks.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 07:27:45 AM »
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A cryptic request.

Possibly the comments that the Epson black/grey inks shift to warm due to fading and that the yellow also fades in color strength so the total is kept more or less in balance.  If that really works it can only be on a paper that has some stability itself, if that one yellows faster than the black/grey inks I do not see how that balance can be kept.

And ColorByte - ImagePrint developers think there is more fade resistance possible with more reduction of color inks in B&W printing than ABW does. Something they probably learned from the HP Z3100/3200 media presets that used the same trick but with even more stable inks. Both ImagePrint and the HP B&W output has been tested by Aardenburg.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_weakest_link.shtml


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http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:01:06 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
deanwork
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 12:41:07 PM »
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Don't you think that the magenta channels are as problematic, or more problematic than the yellow channels with Epson inks?

The cyan channel is very robust but none of these magenta inks, besides the HP Vivera, are that good really. I"m glad I don't need magenta or yellow with the Canon.

I would worry more about the Epson prints going greenish or cyanish in the long term, right?

Unfortunately the Aardenburg monochrome tests with ABW that I've seen up there that have gone on for awhile were done with warm and sepia prints ( look at the color charts). That doesn't tell us much about neutral output ( not that I"m using Epson inks for monochrome). But I believe there are some more recent test samples that are using neutral ABW prints.

john

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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 05:00:14 PM »
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Unfortunately the Aardenburg monochrome tests with ABW that I've seen up there that have gone on for awhile were done with warm and sepia prints ( look at the color charts). That doesn't tell us much about neutral output ( not that I"m using Epson inks for monochrome). But I believe there are some more recent test samples that are using neutral ABW prints.

john
I submitted a whole series of ABW prints on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth to Mark for testing that involve all of the Epson Settings (3880 printer) as well as others on the extremes of the toning wheel.  These have now reached the 60 Mlux test threshold so one can get some good information here.  The neutral print test holds up pretty good while the sepia print shows a little more fading because of the increased use of yellow which is the most problematic of all the Epson inks.

Alan
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MHMG
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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 06:22:33 PM »
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The neutral print test holds up pretty good while the sepia print shows a little more fading because of the increased use of yellow which is the most problematic of all the Epson inks.

Alan

This full set of ABW presets (i.e., "cool", "neutral", "warm", and 'Sepia") on HN photo rag Ultrasmooth plus additional samples tinted to the extreme positions of the ABW color wheel have ID'S 227-236 in the Aardenburg Light fade database. ID# 226 is a full color image also printed on same paper batch and printer at the time the ABW samples were made. As we'd expect for the ABW results, the extreme yellow tinted sample is the one to first reach its AaI&A Conservation Display rating limit (56-59 megalux hours). None of the other samples have reached their limits yet, so testing is ongoing, but the trends already suggest the extreme cyan tinted sample will also do exceptionally well, the magenta and red tinted samples less so. Preset "Sepia" will be weaker than the other ABW preset tints but significantly better than the extreme yellow tinted sample, again a fairly predictable result but good to see demonstrated in practice.

Keeping these ABW tinted sample results in perspective with the full color Epson K3VM sample fading (ID# 226) and also comparing the 56-59 Mlux hour rating of the worst ABW tinted sample (the extreme yellow) to Aardenburg display ratings for other third party monochrome ink sets that are not "full carbon" ink sets, the ABW test results are very respectable. Thus, if you make B&W prints using Epson ABW mode, I wouldn't worry too much about the effect of tinting on lightfastness. I'd worry more about choice of media. An unwise media choice will seriously undermine any B&W print's overall hue stability. Take a look, for example, at ID# 146 which used a full carbon pigment (highly fade resistant) ink set on a paper that exhibited rapid OBA burnout and therefore visually apparent "yellow staining".  The magnitude of the media whitepoint shift caused a noticeable shift in hue throughout all the image highlights and many of the mid tone values in this otherwise very stable image printed on that paper. As that overall hue shift occurred, it in turn triggered the very sad 6 megalux hour Aardenburg conservation display rating for this sample!

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 08:50:06 PM by MHMG » Logged
deanwork
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 12:17:25 PM »
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 I just looked at the more recent samples #227 for Epson ABW, and # 186 for Canon 6300 with the canon driver output and you guys are totally right, the Vivid Magenta holding up well at this point for neutral black and white on H Photograg with the 3880. Actually the Epson at 60 mega lux  (30 Wilhelm Years) and Canon at 100 megalux  (50 Wilhelm Years) are almost identical in that respect, at this point. The HP is holding up exceptionally well in the longer term but maybe these will also.

Does anyone know if that Canon sample had any color inks in the mix? With TBW I'm not using any color inks, but it is possible with the Canon workflow you might use a bit?

Wish one Epson sample had been sprayed with a uv coat . That could come close to doubling these figures and put them up there with HP. But we're extremely lucky to have what we have.

So, so far, the Vivid Magenta is doing quite well in the neutral mix.

john

« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 12:20:15 PM by deanwork » Logged
MHMG
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 05:26:05 PM »
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Does anyone know if that Canon sample had any color inks in the mix? With TBW I'm not using any color inks, but it is possible with the Canon workflow you might use a bit?


Download the full report from the Aardenburg database for the ID#186 sample, and take a look at pages 3 and 4. There are screenshots of the exact "recipe" use to make the test sample. It was done using the Canon OEM driver's "baked in" grayscale mode, similar it would seem in basic concept to Epson ABW mode.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 05:50:51 PM »
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Does anyone know if that Canon sample had any color inks in the mix? With TBW I'm not using any color inks, but it is possible with the Canon workflow you might use a bit?
I submitted those 6300 samples. The B/W samples were made using Canon's monochrome mode, which is similar to Epson ABW in that you have some basic toning controls but no direct control over the ink mix or any indication of how much (or little) color ink is used. It should be less color than when using regular RGB mode though. Those particular prints were done with my wam-tone recipe (less yellow and more magenta compared to the default "warm" setting).  As Mark mentioned the report should contain screen shots of the exact settings that were used.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2013, 03:05:46 AM »
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I'm trying to chase down a web article that mentioned how and why yellow inks were used in the printing of greyscale images. I thought it was a review here on LL where it was mentioned that natural greys were used in place of yellow plus black but I can't find the review/essay easily. Does anyone else recall this?

Of course some feedback on what you expected in the replies could give us a clue whether this thread has taken the right course.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 03:11:59 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
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