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Author Topic: Soft Proofing  (Read 2811 times)
petercorb
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« on: December 31, 2012, 04:26:28 AM »
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I print for other photographers and normally use CS to soft proof. I load customers files into CS6 - they are normally tagged with an icc profile and I always use their embedded profile (even though I personally use Pro Photo RGB for my own work) - soft proof and then print in Mirage. I want to start using Lightroom 4 for soft proofing then export the files and print in Mirage. I understand that during the soft proof process (in LR) once a Rendering Intent is chosen it is automatically applied in the LR print output regardless of the choice of Intent in the LR print module.
I have three questions:
1. If I load a file into LR it is converted to Pro PhotoRGB regardless of the embedded profile. When I export it I can choose the original profile or leave it with the Pro Photo - what is best here and what are the ramifications if any?
2. Will the exported file be fixed with the rendering intent as chosen in LR. In Mirage there is a choice of output rendering intent, is this choice still available, or is it fixed as in LR?
3. Is the output/export sharpening the same algorithm as in the LR print module.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 07:55:04 PM »
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I have three questions:
1. If I load a file into LR it is converted to Pro PhotoRGB regardless of the embedded profile. When I export it I can choose the original profile or leave it with the Pro Photo - what is best here and what are the ramifications if any?
Peter, my information is that Lightroom will honour an embedded profile and NOT automatically convert the profile to ProphotoRGB.
If you convert an image with a sRGB embedded profile to ProphotoRGB generally the image will look very washed out. (Probably also applies to AdobeRGB-embedded images too.)
2. Will the exported file be fixed with the rendering intent as chosen in LR. In Mirage there is a choice of output rendering intent, is this choice still available, or is it fixed as in LR?
I have no direct knowledge of how Mirage behaves but it would likely not be fixed.
3. Is the output/export sharpening the same algorithm as in the LR print module.
Yes, but you need to tell the export dialog whether you are sharpening for glossy or matte paper, or for monitor display.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 08:06:28 PM by Tony Jay » Logged
petercorb
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2013, 03:01:34 AM »
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Hi Tony,
Thank you for your reply. I cannot find anywhere about LR honouring the embedded profile but as far as I can see you are right.
Mirage seems to give a different rendering, at least on-screen. I have asked the Mirage support the same question.
I must admit I do like the sharpening in the LR print module - I also use Photo Kit in CS6 which I believe is from the same stable - and of course the correct media and amount applies same as the print module.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 03:05:39 AM »
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...I must admit I do like the sharpening in the LR print module - I also use Photo Kit in CS6 which I believe is from the same stable - and of course the correct media and amount applies same as the print module...
Yes, courtesy of the boys from PixelGenius!

Tony Jay
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petercorb
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2013, 03:24:34 AM »
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I am sure someone on this site - it may have been Jeff Schewe - said that LR automatically converts a tagged image to Pro Photo on import. I dont doubt your word but is there any further info on this issue?
Peter
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2013, 04:06:31 AM »
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That is definitely the case with untagged images.
I specifically have read in the last day or so out of Seth Resnick's Lightroom workflow book that tagged images are respected but this is not the only place or time that I have encountered this information.
I see that you have also posted a similar question on Lightroom Forums - I will refrain from posting there and give others an opportunity to contribute.

You need peace of mind on this issue and I am sure you will find the clarification that you seek.

Tony Jay
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petercorb
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2013, 04:18:09 AM »
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Thanks Tony, lets see what transpires in the LR forums - as you say I like peace of mind.

Peter
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JRSmit
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2013, 04:50:39 AM »
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Colorspace coversion is what it says, convert from one to one, and needs a rendering intent. When yo assign a colorspace, thus not convert to, then you get washed out colors if you do that for an image that should have profotoRGB assigned, but gets sRGB assigned. vice versa if you assingning pRGB or even aRGB to a image that should have sRGB assigned colors look overly saturated.

I knwo little of mirage, but softproofing in LR is to see where the printer will short-change you in colors, thus allow you to change the image such to compensate for that. This changed image can then be exported to tiff in pRGB colorspace and this exported image can be printed with mirage with the printprofile as you want it.
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petercorb
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2013, 06:57:09 AM »
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Thanks again for the input.

I have been using soft proofing in CS for years and when I get customers files to print I - up until now - have loaded them into CS using the embedded profile, soft proofed and printed. I find the LR soft poof to be a better option with more control using the full menu of adjustments. Before I change my workflow (and convince some of my clients) to soft proofing in LR I wanted to know what was happening to files embedded with profiles and the consequent (if any) changes the LR Import/Export function would have - This has been answered both here and more comprehensively in the LR Forum.

My question about Mirage was related to the function whereby selecting a specific Rendering Intent in the soft proof function of LR fixes this Intent when one goes on to print in LR. I was asking if LR somehow taggs the chosen Intent in the icc profile (file) and carries this instruction through when the file is exported, or is it a specific part of the LR internal programme?

I have asked Mirage support the same question.
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Rand47
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2013, 09:25:36 AM »
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I am sure someone on this site - it may have been Jeff Schewe - said that LR automatically converts a tagged image to Pro Photo on import. I dont doubt your word but is there any further info on this issue?
Peter

This is from an Adobe resource page:

Quote
About color management in Lightroom

Lightroom simplifies color management in your photographic workflow. You don’t need to choose color settings or color profiles until you are ready to output your photos. To take advantage of Lightroom color management, you need to calibrate your computer monitor so that you are viewing accurate color. See Calibrate and profile your monitor.

Color spaces, color profiles, and tonal response curves
It’s not necessary for you to understand how Lightroom manages color internally, but the following information may be useful in your workflow.

A color space describes a range or gamut of colors. Various devices in your photographic workflow have different color gamuts in which they can record, store, edit, and output photos. A color profile defines a color space so that Lightroom knows how to manage and convert colors in your photo.

Raw photo files generally don’t have embedded color profiles. For raw files, the Develop module assumes a wide color space based on the color values of the ProPhoto RGB color space. ProPhoto RGB encompasses most colors that cameras can record.

A color profile is also defined by a gamma value, or more accurately, its tonal response curve. The tonal response curve defines how tonal values in the raw image are mapped. To provide useful information in the histogram and RGB value display, Lightroom assumes a gamma value of approximately 2.2. More accurately, it uses a tonal response curve similar to the tonal response curve of the sRGB color space.

While Lightroom uses a tonal response curve to provide information for the histogram and RGB values, it manipulates the raw data before it is tone mapped. Working in this linear gamma avoids many of the artifacts that can result in working with a tone-mapped image.

The Library module stores previews in the Adobe RGB color space. These previews are also used when printing in draft mode.

For rendered files such as TIFF, JPEG, and PSD files, Lightroom uses the image’s embedded color profile to display the image, histogram, and color values. If the image doesn’t have a profile, Lightroom assumes the sRGB profile, and the image may not look as expected on your monitor.

Output color profiles
When you print a photo in Lightroom, you can choose to convert the colors to more closely match the color space of the printer, paper, and ink you are using. For information on working with printer color profiles, see Set print color management.

Lightroom automatically exports images in the Slideshow and Web modules using the sRGB profile so that the color looks good on the majority of computer monitors.

The page itself here:  http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/Lightroom/1.0/help.html?content=WS0F7BFFFA-CE53-4ceb-B3D3-9D6256B8917D.html

Best,
Rand
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 09:28:13 AM by Rand47 » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2013, 09:26:20 AM »
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1. If I load a file into LR it is converted to Pro PhotoRGB regardless of the embedded profile. When I export it I can choose the original profile or leave it with the Pro Photo - what is best here and what are the ramifications if any?
2. Will the exported file be fixed with the rendering intent as chosen in LR. In Mirage there is a choice of output rendering intent, is this choice still available, or is it fixed as in LR?
3. Is the output/export sharpening the same algorithm as in the LR print module.

1.Rendered images (not raws) in LR will honor their embedded profile color space. BUT if you edit that data in LR, you WILL convert it at some point to ProPhoto RGB with linear TRC. The LR engine can only operate on that color space. The new edited iteration will be using that edit/color space. You could export into something else of course. And the original rendered image was left untouched. If you export in the same color space as the original you'll honor it.

2.Depends on the color space/profile used. For all RGB working spaces, you get a Relative Colorimetric intent. Like Photoshop, you can select Perceptual but you will not get that (these profiles only have a single table that defines RelCol. If someday V4 ICC profiles ever take off AND someone builds a suite, you could in theory use other rendering intents). So outside of Print, or when using any RGB working space profiles, you get Relative Colorimetric. Same in Photoshop.

3. Print sharpens for Print (ink jet) and uses three 'strengths' while Export allows sharpening for the screen as an option. Web and Slideshow likewise have sharpening but based for screen, not print output.  
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Andrew Rodney
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Rand47
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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2013, 09:33:56 AM »
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Andrew,

Your explanation in #1 comment above was very helpful to my understanding!   Thank you.

Rand
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petercorb
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2013, 01:31:08 AM »
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1.
Quote
BUT if you edit that data in LR, you WILL convert it at some point to ProPhoto RGB with linear TRC

I would like to address my original question again. What is the result of this CONVERSION to ProPhoto RGB? and if I go ahead and soft proof my file in LR and save and export it for printing somewhere else, is it best to leave with the converted ProPhoto profile or convert it back to the original?

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Schewe
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2013, 02:34:03 AM »
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\I want to start using Lightroom 4 for soft proofing then export the files and print in Mirage.

Why? As far as I can see, Mirage doesn't really give much in the way of significant advantages over LR4 (as far as I can see). Just so ya know, the developers do NOT list LR as a supported app. Still not clear what you THINK you can do in Mirage that you can't do in LR4. You seem to be making things really complicated...
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petercorb
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2013, 03:59:18 AM »
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Well Jeff I like options.

Some of my customers insist I print from Mirage and thats how I got to use it in the first place.  Indeed it does have a very elegant, easy to use (for me) interface and a great Print-job recording/filing method. Also it spools faster than anything I have used and allows me to print on two printers simultaneously and work on the next job immediately the first job is spooled. One can also view on-the-fly in the preview any final proofing and the onscreen preview is the most accurate I have every used, I never get surprising color or image brightness issues this includes ImagePrint (which I have used for years) and the printed results are as good as anything I have used to date including LR.

As I said in the first place I use PS (with the customers own profiles) to soft proof and then print but since LR 4 I like the soft proofing process better than PS and wanted to investigate an alternative workflow. However it seems that the process of importing into LR, soft proofing and exporting and still maintaining the original profile is not as simple as I thought, and I have not gotten a complete explanation as to what happens if I try.

However this process has led me to much more knowledge about the way LR works in the management of profiles so I am still grateful for the feedback.

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digitaldog
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« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2013, 09:54:38 AM »
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  What is the result of this CONVERSION to ProPhoto RGB? and if I go ahead and soft proof my file in LR and save and export it for printing somewhere else, is it best to leave with the converted ProPhoto profile or convert it back to the original?

Impossible to say without knowing about the image itself, it's color space etc. The least number of color space conversions are ideal. If you have rendered images in LR, I don't see the point of re-edting them there anyway and then the color space of that data is honored.
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Andrew Rodney
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petercorb
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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2013, 10:53:19 AM »
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Well as I said in the first place my objective was to use LR to Soft Proof files already tagged as I like the Soft Proof function better in LR than CS6.

My customers files come with different profiles and I must respect their choice and integrity of their files.

It is easy to open the files in CS6, Soft Proof then print with my preferred output, which is Mirage (after output sharpening in Pixel Genius). I guess I must do some comprehensive testing before I use LR for Soft Proofing and exporting. I can look at the files with ColorThink and evaluate, then on-screen and finally in print before I change my current workflow.

As you say the least number of changes to the colorspace the better.

Thank you for your input.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 12:19:26 PM »
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Well as I said in the first place my objective was to use LR to Soft Proof files already tagged as I like the Soft Proof function better in LR than CS6.

I don't understand your workflow (yet). If you have rendered images in differing color spaces, open them in Photoshop and soft proof there. Then do whatever you want with the image and the issue of color space conversions at this point is moot. While the UI is a bit better in LR for soft proofing, you can easily accomplish setting one up in Photoshop too. IF you were working with raw data, or even rendered data you wanted to print directly in Lightroom, I can see the questions. But it seems like you have no less than 3 products commingling here and editing rendered images in LR, sending that data through it's processing color space simply to soft proof and make tiny edits seems counter productive.
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Andrew Rodney
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petercorb
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« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2013, 12:40:32 PM »
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Its really not complicated.

I run a printing service for Fine Art Photographers. Most of them process their own files and bring the finished images to me, they come in TIFF with whatever profile they themselves choose. I open the files in CS6 and soft proof ( I also analysis the files in ColorThink and check the integrity of the profiles) then print in Mirage & Image Print.

Since LR 4 and its Soft Proofing function I have come to like this process (I use it for my own Fine Art Photography) and this all started when I asked advice on using LR to process my clients files in LR then export and print outside LR.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2013, 05:16:58 PM »
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Peter, perhaps a practical solution is to negotiate with your clients to send you files with ProphotoRGB embedded then no unnecessary colourspace conversions are required in Lightroom. The files themselves could be RAW, TIFF, or DNG.
This way you can use Lightroom to its strengths.
You are well aware personally of its strengths - hence your own use of the Print module.

Also, a question for you to answer (I have never used Mirage): is there anything that Mirage does that really makes it non-negotiable in the workflow or can the Print module actually do these things?
Again, there may be room to negotiate.

Otherwise I think that you are left to your older workflow of using Photoshop.

Tony Jay
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