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Author Topic: RED's Dragon Sensor w/ 20 Stop DR  (Read 3748 times)
Bern Caughey
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« on: January 01, 2013, 01:27:30 PM »
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www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92158-Enter-the-Dragon
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RFPhotography
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2013, 02:02:53 PM »
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'Coming soon....'  So, in Red-speak, about 3 years from now?  :-D
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2013, 06:55:46 PM »
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Hi Bern,

Interesting, a non-linear sensor of sorts. Recording 20 stops of dynamic range, would normally require a well depth for at least 1,048,576 photons, a gain of 1, and virtually zero(!) noise, which would normally require sensels with some 24 micron sensel pitch and active noise reduction in Raw.

Cheers,
Bart
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ftbt
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 10:16:18 PM »
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If you take the time to read through the thread (including what Jim Jannard and Graeme Nattress have posted on the topic) it really isn't 20 stops of DR. You are misinterpreting what that chart shows in terms of DR. More like 18+. Still .... mind-blowing!
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2013, 12:58:32 AM »
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Hi Bern,

Interesting, a non-linear sensor of sorts. Recording 20 stops of dynamic range, would normally require a well depth for at least 1,048,576 photons, a gain of 1, and virtually zero(!) noise, which would normally require sensels with some 24 micron sensel pitch and active noise reduction in Raw.


or just a simple pair of subsensels separated by 4+ stops, like Fuji did... 14+ stops from a sensel on technical targets DxO measures in raw files from commodity sensors now.
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bcooter
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 01:57:29 AM »
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If you take the time to read through the thread (including what Jim Jannard and Graeme Nattress have posted on the topic) it really isn't 20 stops of DR. You are misinterpreting what that chart shows in terms of DR. More like 18+. Still .... mind-blowing!

I am far from being a red fan boy, but I do have tremendous respect for their equipment.

Dealing with RED is another matter as they are the strangest supplier I work with.

Just their ordering system can be maddening and our RED rep rarely gets an order correct, even down to the shipping address.

Once again, no diss on RED as their equipment, once the kinks are worked out is top notch.

Their forum . . . well it's too many fan boys going way to go Jim, that a boy, I bet Canon won't sleep tonight type of stuff, regardless of the post.

I just find real information about new product to be way skewed until it's out and in use.

Red said don't sell your R1 as if you do you'll be disappointed, then they drop the R! from their line and wholesale out the remaining units.

Then they said the Dragon will be available for the Scarlet now you hear . . . Not.

Now they say the upgrade will be a "little " more than the planned $6,000 which in RED speak means who knows.

I really don't care as i did and still make money using their cameras, but what they say doesn't inspire confidence.

__________________________________

On the other hand the R1 sensor has more real latitude than any camera I've used, film or digital, motion or still.

Last year we were blocking shots for a project that was still and motion and using the R1 as the on set polaroid.

We had streaming window light from a 1k HMI and a soft box for key along with white bounce board for fill.

Got it right on the RED and shot it, then put up a still camera and the window light was blown out by a stop.

I thought it was a function of the RED settings being too flat so we looked at the RED footage in Cine-x, crushed it down, looked at the
stills both from the Phase backs and Canon 1ds3's and no matter how you worked the files to match the RED was at least two stops more
real latitude than the still cameras.

_________________________________

One thing about RED is when they say everything will change they're right . . . because it probably will, but rarely in your favor.

This is not meant as a don't buy a RED reply because they make very good equipment, but everything in the digital world seems to be different than the press releases
at least in spirt, so if you can afford something and want to make money using it, go ahead, but if you believe that down the line it won't become somewhat obsolete, then
your probably setting yourself up for a fall.

Not RED, just about every digital company.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 02:04:23 AM by bcooter » Logged
ftbt
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 02:55:48 PM »
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I am far from being a red fan boy, but I do have tremendous respect for their equipment.

Dealing with RED is another matter as they are the strangest supplier I work with.

Just their ordering system can be maddening and our RED rep rarely gets an order correct, even down to the shipping address.

Once again, no diss on RED as their equipment, once the kinks are worked out is top notch.

Their forum . . . well it's too many fan boys going way to go Jim, that a boy, I bet Canon won't sleep tonight type of stuff, regardless of the post.

I just find real information about new product to be way skewed until it's out and in use. ...

I am not a "fanboy" either, but my Scarlet paid for itself in the first 45 days, and has been consistently making me money ever since ... that's all I really care about. (My clients like it too.) It is a creative tool. Nothing more ... nothing less. It is too bad that you apparently have had issues with RED. I agree. Their ordering system leaves a lot to be desired ... but, all in all, it has generally worked for me. (I have an excellent relationship with my Bomb Squad Rep. ... maybe that helps?) However, like most things in life, YMMV.

As to the new Dragon sensor, "time-will-tell." I am perfectly happy with what I have. I will just have to wait and see how the upgrade program works. However, I can tell you, having owned professional cameras from Sony, JVC and Panasonic, I can't recall any of those companies ever offering the type of trade-in or buy back program that RED has offered in the past. It will be interesting to see what they offer to us Scarlet owners.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 03:14:55 PM by ftbt » Logged
georgl
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2013, 05:43:50 AM »
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Let's wait and see, their marketing has always been excellent but the final products had typical issues.

When they came up with their last sensor generation (MX in R1, Epic, Scarlet) they claimed extremely high DR similar to their main-competitor which involves an unique, patented design (dual-gain, large photosites, elaborate thermal-management). Later independent/scientific test made it clear that their DR is typical and 2 stops behind the competitor.
Now they claim 18 stops, 6 stops higher than their current system, 64x higher with smaller photosites!!
That is hardly possible with a regular sensor-design - I want to see proof for this kind of claim.
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bcooter
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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2013, 01:49:48 PM »
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I am not a "fanboy" either, but my Scarlet paid for itself in the first 45 days, and has been consistently making me money ever since ... that's all I really care about. (My clients like it too.) It is a creative tool. Nothing more ... nothing less. It is too bad that you apparently have had issues with RED. I agree. Their ordering system leaves a lot to be desired ... but, all in all, it has generally worked for me. (I have an excellent relationship with my Bomb Squad Rep. ... maybe that helps?) However, like most things in life, YMMV.

As to the new Dragon sensor, "time-will-tell." I am perfectly happy with what I have. I will just have to wait and see how the upgrade program works. However, I can tell you, having owned professional cameras from Sony, JVC and Panasonic, I can't recall any of those companies ever offering the type of trade-in or buy back program that RED has offered in the past. It will be interesting to see what they offer to us Scarlet owners.

When we started shooting dv I'd have given anything for a larger sensored film like digital camera and RED delivered at a price that you could accept.

Dealing with RED is not bad, just weird.

Our studio manager who's the most buttoned down person on the planet deals with our RED rep and regardless of voice, e-mail, voice, e-mail 2 out of three transactions get sent to the wrong address or just come out wrong.

When we bought our second R1, we needed it in less than a week so RED required $22,000 in "cash"  . . . no other payment.  Our studio has an incredible financial history and we buy goods and services around the world.  We had multiple ways of securely paying RED, but we had to stop, order cash from the bank, drive it to Orange county and stand there an hour while they verified the cash.   It's was so silly.

Anyway, everybody has different results and if yours are good that's great.

In regards to the dragon sensor I don't care as nobody is asking and our RED's work perfectly.  Personally I like the R1 100 times better than the Scarlet.  I think the Scarlet footage looks too smooth and I loathe  the reflective screen.  It's virtually impossible on some sunny days to track a subject using the screen.  We've added the bomb viewer to bypass the screen.  Same with the i/o sound contacts. Those awaful little input jacks crack and pop so it's another $3,750 for the pro in and out module.

But, ONCE AGAIN, I do very much like RED's product and could only ask for a few more things.  I wish the R-1's booted up faster and I wish the Scarlet would really autofocus.  We have the Canon and Nikon mounts for the Scarlet and autofocus only works for locked down static subjects.   

Autofocus may be a dirty word in feature film world, but for a documentary style production to get that "reality" look about half our creative briefs call for makes autofocus a godsend.

Anyway, I think RED is a very good, but very strange company that does themselves no service by making all of these advanced claims until they have product on the shelf.  Their forum is so weird and cult like when you try to get real information and all of this kind of creeps me out.    I don't care about bashing either as that does no good, but rah rah on every announcement is also very strange. 

They also do themselves no service when they constantly change position on products.  One day they say they'll keep the R1's in service for a long time, three days later they drop the line and fire sale out all of their R1's.  It doesn't build confidence and this equipment is expensive so you want some assurance that when a company says they'll continue selling something, then they will.

Yes we've made money with our cameras and yes they continue to work fine though . . .

I buy equipment to use, not join a club, but as you say YMMV.

IMO

BC

P.S.  Not to go off topic but I think the DV world is where still digital was 8 years ago.  Everyone is bouncing around trying to find a standard.  Prosumer to professional is somewhat blurred.  Look at the Scarlet. It's really an Epic with a few electronic brakes put on it, to make the Epic more attractive. 

It is a build your own, business model where the camera and viewfinder are quite cheap in film world standards, $14,000, but once you add a eye viewfinder, a proper i/o box, batteries that run for any length of time, SSD recording modules, your back up to around $25,000 for the low end model.

The other end are the Sony's and Canons that shoot 2k or will shoot 4k but no real direct path to what file format that is, how you easily grade or convert it, what is the standard for file delivery and no offered grading suite.

The new 4k Canon dslr is a head scratcher because it only shoots 24p, which disregards European production at 25p, won't do 30p in 4k mode, etc. etc.

The Sony's new 4k isn't 4k yet and the e mount lenses are still very limited.

What amazes me is if you go back a decade the xl1 was so close to being a great camera for what most of us use a motion camera for.  It had great servo lenses and autofocus, went to 12db easily, was a perfect weight and shape, had a large cottage industry of accessories and the only drawback was it had a tiny "film" frame.  That camera with a super 35mm frame that shot a native prorezz file would have perfectly slotted into the market.

IMO

BC




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BJL
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 09:51:14 AM »
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If you take the time to read through the thread (including what Jim Jannard and Graeme Nattress have posted on the topic) it really isn't 20 stops of DR. You are misinterpreting what that chart shows in terms of DR. More like 18+.
A good tip for reading the RED blogs is to start with what Jannard promises and then turn down his "dynamic range" a few stops by reading what Graeme Nattress says. (The lack of anything short of adulation from other forum commenters is weird; the uniform expression of enthusiasm from the masses is at almost North Korean levels.)

Are there any hints as to how a DR of even 18 stops, about 256,000:1, is achieved when the well capacity is surely less than 256,000? One thought is to alternate between "light green" g and "dark green" G photosites with very different transmitivity, like
GR
Bg
which can at least handle the monochrome DR, which is what the evidence in that thread refers to.
After all, even for 4K video output, there is room to trade resolution for DR in processing; far more so than with a sensor designed primarily for still images.

EDIT: never mind; it is reportedly just "HDR" on the fly, a variant of something that still cameras have been doing for a while now. This takes advantage of another feature of cinematography: the exposure times are relatively long, and typically are about half of the time between frames, like 1/48s exposure for 24fps. So there is the opportunity to add a second far faster exposure after the main one for each frame, and use this to fix blown highlights in the main exposure.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 10:15:53 AM by BJL » Logged
BJL
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 08:47:04 PM »
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Interesting, a non-linear sensor of sorts. Recording 20 stops of dynamic range, would normally require a well depth for at least 1,048,576 photons, a gain of 1, and virtually zero(!) noise, which would normally require sensels with some 24 micron sensel pitch and active noise reduction in Raw.
One speculation is that RED is working with NIT and its logarithmic response sensors:
http://www.new-imaging-technologies.com/core-technology.html
NIT claims 120 and 140 dB in various places, which is 20 to 23 stops.
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ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 05:06:02 PM »
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+1 on  Red's real world DR.  I've compared the R1 and Epic to my 5D2 and P65+ and the Reds hold hilight detail like nothing else.  I've been testing the 1D-C the last few days.  It's unfortunate that it records the 4k in Motion Jpeg but the files themselves, when shot in CanonLog also have incredible dynamic range, holding hilights damn near as well as the Epic.

I'm putting a presentation together for a night with my local dealer in a couple weeks and I'll post grabs after that.

I've had two different Bomb Squad reps over the years and never had any errors in my orders.

Cheers,
CB
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RobertJ
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2013, 03:01:33 PM »
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Don't think it's 20 stops.  Word on the street is that the Dragon sensor is 16 stops, which is great!

BTW, if you haven't tried the Black Magic Cinema Camera, you're missing out!  It has about 13 stops of DR with 2.5K DNG RAW files.  You can bring the DNG files into Adobe Camera RAW, LR, Capture One, whatever you want, and recover all the highlight detail, and grade your footage.  It's beautiful. 

The smaller sensor isn't such a big deal.  There are Voigtlander 17 and 25mm lenses that are f/0.95, and a ton of other lenses that will work, especially when the Micro Four thirds mount starts shipping.  Speaking of which, that's the weakness of the camera... it's been delayed, and people are on a waiting list.  It's a shame.  

Anyway, 15 minutes of footage from the BMCC is 21,600 frames, so it could take a while to export all those frames from ACR, for example, but it's a great option.  The camera comes with a full version of Davinci Resolve if you don't want to go that route.

Once you mess around with a cinema camera that shoots RAW, you never want to go back to anything else.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 03:05:10 PM by T-1000 » Logged
Bern Caughey
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2013, 10:00:19 PM »
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RED's posted a couple of stills from a beta version of the Dragon 6k sensor. Both are shot at ISO 2000.

Click on the image to open full size versions.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?94476-Double-Dragon&p=1149372&viewfull=1#post1149372

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?94476-Double-Dragon&p=1149394&viewfull=1#post1149394
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