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Author Topic: Digital back for Rollei 6008 Integral 2  (Read 3795 times)
Graham Welland
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« on: January 05, 2013, 11:28:06 PM »
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This is probably a huge long shot but if anyone knows of a source selling a phase One db20p at a sensible price can you let me know?

It's not a critical need as I use this thing for 6x6 film but it might be a nice option if I can find one.

I'd also be interested in an equivalent Sinar if anyone should come across one.

I suspect that most of these ended up being traded by now but always worth a punt ...

Thanks
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kmallick
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 12:38:17 AM »
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I am in the same boat and I would like to know the same as well. The question remains as to what is a 'sensible price' and what is a good market price for an old, cropped back like the db20p. Agreed that it has a stellar reputation, however some people still seem to be asking a lot ($3K to $3.5K) for these in the used market. I am not a professional and I wonder whether its a sensible investment for me even at those prices. So far I have convinced myself that I am having more fun with the film on my 6008 AF.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 12:46:01 AM by kmallick » Logged
EricWHiss
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 01:04:34 AM »
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The db20p on the Rollei is a great set-up.  I still see people asking close to $5k for the p20 in hasselblad V mount right now, so one in Rollei mount which is much less common at $3.5k is probably a pretty fair deal.  You will find ixpress 96c and 384c backs for less money but its not as convenient with the image bank.   Prices on the dp20p have held steady for several years.   I shot almost 30,000 frames on my db20p (how much would film and processing that many frames cost?)  - and then got more than I paid for it later on a trade up with my dealer.  I don't think cost is as important a factor as it first appears. 

The only one I know of/knew of that was selling his db20p back for rollei was Les Hansen.   Kaushik, I think you contacted him already?
There must be a few dealers that can locate on of these?  Maybe Peter Devos on this forum still has a digital back in Rollei mount?   I think he had several for sale a while back.   Evegeny had a sinar 54H for sale on this forum and I have an adapter for the older Sinar backs to fit the Rollei, but these I think are only tethered. The multishot backs are amazing though.   Also I think a chinese dealer on ebay had one recently - forget the name but it was something like begruet camera. I think they wanted around $5k for it.
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Wim van Velzen
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 03:19:59 AM »
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I have been using Hasselblad/Imacon 132C and 528C backs for years now. Landscape, wedding formals, portraits.
Work very well and with Phocus usable up to 400 ISO. Recommended if you are unable to find the Phase.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 03:25:56 AM »
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I can echo that re the 528.  Great back!
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kmallick
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2013, 10:05:42 AM »
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The only one I know of/knew of that was selling his db20p back for rollei was Les Hansen.   Kaushik, I think you contacted him already?

Eric, Yes I did contact Les. He might still have the db20p for sale. I could not afford to pay $3.5K for it.

I am further afraid that the db20p will turn into a paper weight as bigger and better backs come out with the Hy6 system maturing. I will wait and see.

For those using the Hasselblad backs, are the adapters easily available?
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Wim van Velzen
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 10:33:10 AM »
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I had no problem getting the Rollei plate as part of the deal (official Hasselblad dealer here).
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rolleiflexpages
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 11:36:55 AM »
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The biggest advantage of the DB20p is that is actually a square sensor back, so the traditional square format is preserved without cropping. Regrettably such a square solution is not (yet?) available for the Hy6 series. I have a DB20p and must admit not using it much since I still overwhelmingly shoot film.
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Wim van Velzen
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 12:09:20 PM »
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The square though is 36x36mm, so rather a crop. The 132c and 528c for example are 36x48.
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »
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Wim, right but I did not mean to say that 36x36 is no crop vs 56x56 negative format; the point was that -in comparison to other digital backs- the output is square without further cropping, which is what one has to do with rectangle backs. The ideal back would have a 56x56 sensor. One can always dream, I guess...
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 01:15:33 PM »
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Actually the big advantages of the db20p is really the phase software and ability to write to the CF directly.  Imacon/Hasselblad ixpress backs came in the 96c and 384c varieties both which use the same square sensor that was in the p20.  Hasselblad and sinar backs have the advanatage of being able to be mounted to a variety of cameras with the adapter plates. That makes them much easier to find and also sell. Since you can find one for any mount and change it over.   You can buy the adapters for Rollei new from Hasselblad but they are expensive.  They are much harder but not impossible to find on the 2nd hand market.   

Dodd camera in Ohio had 3 ixpress 384c backs last Spring and wanted something like $2500 or $2000 each.  Maybe they still have one? These are good backs especially if you want to use the multishot function. But the screen is pretty terrible and you must use the image bank which is something else to carry.      Some of the older Sinar backs may be getting down lower than the $3500 but many shoot only tethered to a computer and don't have screens.   

Still I think it might be unrealistic to get a digital back set-up for the 6000 series for under $3.5k with the adapter plates and everything. Some older backs need recalibration too, and that can run $500-1000 service.  Important to check a few frames for seams and hot pixels prior to purchase.

I think the first generation of Sinar and Leaf backs for the Hy6/AFi have come down a lot in price.  You might be able to pick up a AFi 7 for something like $5k-$7K if you are lucky, but you'd need to then find a Hy6 body.  I don't think its really possible to get into the newer platform for under $10k when you figure the camera in as well.    As far as I know, none of the backs for the Hy6 can be fit to the 6000 bodies - but perhaps someone who knows the Sinar backs better can say if these can be fit with an 6000 adapter plate or not.  In any case, I don't see much price drop coming to the 6000 series backs from the Hy6.     

The AFi-ii series has "sensor flex" which enables one to set the back to record a square image (or 16:9 ratio).    It's very useful and my AFi-ii 12 records a 60mp square using 40mmx40mm crop of the sensor.   It's not the whole area of 56mmx56mm like film but that extra few mm's over the p20 is noticeable and appreciated.  Getting wide angle shots with the p20 was a challenge since the 40mm became a 60mm.  That's one advantage of the 22mp rectangular sensors.   





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kmallick
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2013, 02:42:56 PM »
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Eric, Thanks for teasing us with all the choices.  Grin
Agreed that you cannot get into a Hy6 system with back for less than $10K if you have to figure the body as well. But it seems to be a better combo for digital back compared to the 6008, isn't it not?

Its not so much the price of $3K or $3.5K for db20p that bothers me, but the 6008 really shines with the 6x6 film and I am not convinced that the db20p or any 'kludged-up' digital back for 6008 platform is going to add much to my fun meter. The db20p sensor is only slightly bigger (1.5x) than the 35mm sensor and I feel all the nice Rollei lenses designed for 6x6 are going to be short-changed.

I might save the money and put it towards a Hy6 combo with a bigger sensor. The OP's and other people's opinions might vary.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2013, 02:59:20 PM »
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Well, the lenses between the two platforms are the same. The Hy6 is an impressive camera.  I was really content with the 6008AF but the Hy6 is just a touch better.   The 6008 is built like a tank and I feel possibly more robust than the Hy6.  Exposure metering is very good on both for film, but with the digital backs the Hy6/AFi is more accurate.   AF is faster on the Hy6.  Is it worth the difference in price when the lenses and image quality can be the same?   A lot of the improvements with the newer backs is really with increased higher ISO performance.  I'm not sure you'll see huge differences at base ISO.  Maybe cleaner shadows and a bit better DR when you test.   But there are trade offs too since the sensor well size is smaller.  It took me while to get used to my Leaf back coming from the p20, CF 39MS, and CF 528.   It might be a Kodak vs Dalsa thing too, but I really liked the color and look of the older kodak sensors.   I still believe the CF 528 is one of the best digital backs made. I think if Hasselblad had continued to offer their CF line of backs, the newer 40mp Kodak sensor that is used in the pentax would be really great on the Rollei.

 I'm sure that you will get many opinions but the phase db20p/Rollei 6008 combo was really fun, simple to use and the files were great and required little adjustment.   I don't think working with the new files from my AFi-ii 12 is quite as simple.   You might think the sensor size of the p20 is close to DSLR but the images are very different.  People like Erik K. or Fred would love to jump in a piss all over a comment like that and dump loads of charts and link to images they found via google search to try to prove something. But it means nothing unless you have shot with and worked with the files extensively.   All I can tell you is that there are big differences between the 5d2 files and the p20 files and the p20 files have significantly more detail and a more palpable feel to them than the 5d2.  Half of that may be due to the lenses, but whatever, I'd still take a p20/6008 file over most of the DSLRs out there.  The d800 is very good, but can still produce an image that can look flatter than the p20 even though the sensor sizes are not that far apart.  These differences show in print as well.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 03:18:49 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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Graham Welland
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2013, 04:05:08 PM »
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Thanks for the info. I must admit that I've looked at the Hy6 for a long time and alway felt that this was probably one of the best MF platforms and certainly the AFI backs for it with tilt screen and rotating sensors were a step above the others. I'm tied to the Phase One DF system and my Alpa at the moment for my real MF digital and that's where my investment has been to date.

I picked up the Rollei with a few lenses, including the amazing Schneider 55mm T/S, for peanuts as a film diversion (ok, truthfully I've always wanted one so I cracked!). $3k is probably all I'd want to invest in a back as it's just for tinkering anyways. I already have an IQ160, P25+ and an Aptus 65M wth the DF and Alpa gear so I'm already in the poor house. Tongue

What were the Hasselbad options? CF backs with an adapter? I wouldn't be averse to getting something that could also work with V bodies as well.
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kmallick
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2013, 04:07:20 PM »
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Fair enough. The last thing I want to do is compare db20p files with Nikon D800 or other 35mm full frame cameras. I have seen enough drama on that here.  Roll Eyes I trust you and others that the db20p match very well with the 6008. I was just pointing out my feelings about losing out on the sensor size that the 6008 was designed for, not to mention the shrinking down of the big, beautiful viewfinder when shooting the db20p.

In the end many of us 6008 users would love to get our hands on a 'sensibly priced' db20p or a Hassy 528C or even a Sinar.

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2013, 05:34:20 PM »
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Hasselblad/Imacon options are:

ixpress 96c, 384c, 132c, 528c - all requiring the image bank. 
(There also are older ixpress models without the "c" that have black and white screens and the 1st (earliest) generation sensor that I don't recommend.)
Newer backs with capability to write directly to CF cards (but can also use the image bank are)
CF 22, CF 16, CF 528, CF 39 and 39MS, CF-ii 39 and MS.  The 528 is the CF 22 in multishot mode - I'm not sure how many they made - but I am happy to have one :-) 

Regarding the Rollei 6000 series cameras, I believe there is only one adapter plate that fits all the backs above to the Rollei, though with anything but the 6008AF body, a cable is required between back and the remote shutter connector below the grip.    On the CF backs, this cable is different than on the ixpress backs.

One of the above backs including ixpress and CF can be fit to the Rollei 6003, 6008 pro, 6008i, 6008i2, or 6008AF.   Important to remember that the removable film gate on the camera body must be taken out before fitting the back (and put back in when film is used). 
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2013, 08:28:01 PM »
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FWIW, .02$ in addition.

I agree with what Eric says, not surprisingly as we have matured through our Rollei/Hy6/dp20/Leaf transition as a mutual support group. A few things from a less sophisticated user, who has no experience with the Hassy or Imacon backs:

- the Leaf back on the Hy6 is quite a bit more easy to use than the dp20 on the 6008. The integration is practically flawless, screwups happen (by and large) only from empty batteries, and almost never from the camera end. It works well.

- the 6008 impressed me as much more robust than the Hy6; that said, the 6008 sits and the Hy6 is used. Once you get used to the Hy6, you will not look back, except fondly on the 6008 as a simpler and more mechanical era that somehow warms the soul more than the new world.

- the Hy6 has a depth of capabilities that just keeps expanding as your work grows. The list is practically endless.

- the Leaf backs are quite good - and it is possible to explore the subtleties of tones very delicately with them. There is a learning curve, and like Eric, initially I liked the tones of the dp20. Now... not so sure.

-  I never got really comfortable with the dp20 on the 6008, there just seemed to be a few too many issues: mirror flop, lower ISO, a lack of electronic coordination, all of which went away with the Hy6.

But there is a simplicity to the dp20, and a loveliness to its unaltered files right out of the box which is fondly recalled. If you can deal with the file size, and the light needs of fat pixels, its a nice way to go. But don't underestimate the Hy6 and the capabilities of the Leaf backs - lets just say the M8 sits these days with no use whatsoever. The standards have been raised much higher.
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2013, 12:36:47 AM »
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Yes, no question the DB's are much better integrated with the Hy6/AFi bodies.  I mean you get a histogram in the grip display - how cool is that?   

I might have had an easier time with the 6008/p20 than Geoff and I have pretty fond memories of the p20.  Many of my best shots were taken with that combo.    It was probably much easier to use than the hasselblad ixpress backs.   The imagebank was sort of a bother to me, but might not affect others.    The real issue with the 6000 series bodies was the  battery, but that really has been resolved with the newer cells and chargers that discharge all the way before charging.   I've never noticed a mirror issue with the 6008's.  Few probably realize there is a custom setting to reduce the mirror sound which probably also reduces shake?

The Hy6 can shoot so many frames per charge, I don't think I could count.   I almost never change it.  With the digital back, I must get thousands of frames. So that is a big improvement over the 6000 series bodies where you have to stay on top of them.   
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Graham Welland
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2013, 03:41:22 AM »
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Btw folks, this does nothing for my Hy6 lust ...

Loving my 6008 on film at least. Must stop listening to the wonders of the AFI/Hy6.  Smiley

Also I was just organizing some of my old prints taken with my Kodak 645M from back in 2002/3 - it's still impressive how well even 16mp square MF digital images look when printed at 17x22in. The P20 should still be able to produce even better images than my Kodak I'm sure. Resolution is definitely over-rated most of the time when the image hits the paper.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 03:46:30 AM by Graham Welland » Logged

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