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Author Topic: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts  (Read 17409 times)
Steve Hendrix
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« on: January 10, 2013, 12:09:53 AM »
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We have finally obtained the MTF charts for the Schneider LS lenses for thew Phase One and Mamiya DF/DF+ Camera Systems. Through our hands-on testing, we know what these lenses produce and how they perform in real world on their own, and in comparison to their siblings and cousins. But what fun is that? :rolleyes:

These charts cover the 55/80/110 LS Lenses. As soon as we have the charts for the 28/150/240 & 75-150 LS Lenses, we'll publish those as well.


Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 08:38:00 AM by Steve Hendrix » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 01:26:10 AM »
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Hi Steve,

That link is broken..., please fix!

Here is a link that works: http://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/

Thanks a lot for sharing!

Please note! The MTF curves are given for 15/30/60 lp/mm so you cannot compare directly with the Hasselblad/Zeiss/Leica curves which are given for 10/20/40 lp/mm. The way the Schneider MTF is presented is more demanding. It also makes a lot of sense as digital sensor resolve well beyond 40 lp/mm.

Best regards
Erik


We have finally obtained the MTF charts for the Schneider LS lenses for thew Phase One and Mamiya DF/DF+ Camera Systems. Through our hands-on testing, we know what these lenses produce and how they perform in real world on their own, and in comparison to their siblings and cousins. But what fun is that? :rolleyes:

These charts cover the 55/80/110 LS Lenses. As soon as we have the charts for the 28/150/240 & 75-150 LS Lenses, we'll publish those as well.


Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 02:00:44 AM »
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It's nice to see close-focusing performance as well.  Thank you for posting this, Steve.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 08:38:52 AM »
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Hi Steve,

That link is broken..., please fix!

Here is a link that works: http://www.captureintegration.com/schneider-ls-lens-mtf-charts-for-phase-one-mamiya/

Thanks a lot for sharing!

Please note! The MTF curves are given for 15/30/60 lp/mm so you cannot compare directly with the Hasselblad/Zeiss/Leica curves which are given for 10/20/40 lp/mm. The way the Schneider MTF is presented is more demanding. It also makes a lot of sense as digital sensor resolve well beyond 40 lp/mm.

Best regards
Erik





Ah - thanks Eric. Fixed now. S'what happens when you post in the wee hours of the morning.



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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FredBGG
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 08:27:07 PM »
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How did this one get the Schneider stamp of approval?

Lines look like a roller coaster ride...

Here is the Schneider 47mm



Massive difference.
especially considering the 47mm MTF is a 20/40/60 graph.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 08:40:55 PM by FredBGG » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 10:27:37 PM »
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Hi,

The waviness is coming from correction of the field. There is a significant field curvature which is compensated near the edge. No question that there is very little contrast at 65% of half diagonal and 60 lp/mm but the 30 lp/mm figure is quite decent.

The 55 mm lens is an inverted telephoto (Distagon in Zeiss speak) while the 47 mm is a symmetrical design (Biogon in Zeiss speak). Symmetrical designs usually have less issues with field curvature. Would Schneider not show the 60 lp/mm curve nobody would be complaining.

The curves normally shown used to be either 10, 20, 40 lp/mm or 10 and 30 lp/mm.

The 30 lp/mm curve seems to stay at 70% (varies between 57% and 80%) that is quite decent.

Also, note that the lens has very little astigmatism and very little chromatic aberration. The MTF-curves don't diverge much.

I don't think this is a bad lens.

Best regards
Erik




How did this one get the Schneider stamp of approval?

Lines look like a roller coaster ride...

Here is the Schneider 47mm



Massive difference.
especially considering the 47mm MTF is a 20/40/60 graph.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 01:34:55 AM »
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.....

I don't think this is a bad lens.

Best regards
Erik



At 5.6 it has 25% modulation at 22mm from the image center. That is not even in the corners of the frame.
25% modulation at 30 lpm at 5.6 is pretty lousy. The image will have a doughnut ring of lack of sharpness.

This is a grossly overpriced lens and not up to the standards one would expect from Schneider.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 01:45:29 AM by FredBGG » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 03:03:13 AM »
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Hi,

I'm pretty sure that you got it wrong. Curves are 15/30/60 lp so 30/lp is second from top. 30 lp/mm is around 55% MTF at 22 mm from center.

Best regards
Erik

At 5.6 it has 25% modulation at 22mm from the image center. That is not even in the corners of the frame.
25% modulation at 30 lpm at 5.6 is pretty lousy. The image will have a doughnut ring of lack of sharpness.

This is a grossly overpriced lens and not up to the standards one would expect from Schneider.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 05:39:28 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 11:45:46 AM »
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Look at the bottom row.

They sell this for $4,290.00???

Relative illumination at 2.8 has a fall off of 2 stops.
That means that a 2 stop lens correction has to be done
to correct this. That is quite destructive especially if you also need to make some other
modifications you choose to do.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:56:21 AM by FredBGG » Logged
chrismuc
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 09:38:13 PM »
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For comparison I put together MTF curves of some 645/66/135PC 50-55 mm retrofocus lenses.
Remarks:
- 100% on the horizontal axis (image circle) is not exactly the same
- the MTF are mostly 10/20/40 l/mm but 15/30/60 for the Schneider lenses and Rodenstock adds data even for 80 l/mm resolution
- all at f8 but Rodenstock at f5.6
- Zeiss Hasselblad is photodo data

The Rodenstock lens has highest and most even MTF but maybe that's more easily achievable due to the shorter register compared than the others.
The Fuji/Hasselblad and the two Zeiss lenses have pretty even and similar high MTF values.
Both Schneider lenses have most wavy MTF.

BTW: I once compared the Zeiss Hasselblad 50f4 FLE and the Schneider PC-TS 50f2.8 at 25 to 35mm image radius (Canon 5D2 at full shift) and the HB was sharper, had less CA and less distortion compared to the Schneider. And it achieves 16mm shift radius without vignetting and without sharpness drop (with Mirex shift adapter) while the Schneider only can do 12mm. And that for a fraction of the price:-)
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 10:12:06 PM »
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Hi,

Many lenses loose about two stops at full aperture. See Hasselblad HC 3.5/50-II plot below, almost 3 stops.

Best regards
Erik


Look at the bottom row.

They sell this for $4,290.00???

Relative illumination at 2.8 has a fall off of 2 stops.
That means that a 2 stop lens correction has to be done
to correct this. That is quite destructive especially if you also need to make some other
modifications you choose to do.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 10:18:22 PM »
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Hi,

Just a few comments.

It is not easy to compare MTF charts at different lp/mm and with different scaling. Would Schneider just present the usual 10/20/40 plots it would be much easier to compare with Hasselblad.

The Rodenstock lens is probably a nearly symmetric design. Those lenses in general have less field curvature than telecentric designs needed for DSLR-s. You can probably compare Zeiss Biogon 38 (Hasselbald SWC) and Distagon 40 to see the difference. You cannot mount a symmetric wide angle on an SLR. That was also the reason for the Hasselbald SWC.

On the other hand, it is quite possible to construct excellent telecentric designs. The Zeiss Distagon 21/2.8 and the Samyang 15/2.8 are excellent proofs of the concept.

Also, keep in mind that an MTF graph actually says very little about the general appearance of an image. Why? Because it is valid for the point of best focus! Just defocus 0.03 mm in the film plane and you may get somewhat different results! I was recently testing a few 150 mm lenses at 3.85 m distance and f/5.6. I would say that the area of best focus was not more than 5 cm on each side of best focus.

Best regards
Erik



For comparison I put together MTF curves of some 645/66/135PC 50-55 mm retrofocus lenses.
Remarks:
- 100% on the horizontal axis (image circle) is not exactly the same
- the MTF are mostly 10/20/40 l/mm but 15/30/60 for the Schneider lenses and Rodenstock adds data even for 80 l/mm resolution
- all at f8 but Rodenstock at f5.6
- Zeiss Hasselblad is photodo data

The Rodenstock lens has highest and most even MTF but maybe that's more easily achievable due to the shorter register compared than the others.
The Fuji/Hasselblad and the two Zeiss lenses have pretty even and similar high MTF values.
Both Schneider lenses have most wavy MTF.

BTW: I once compared the Zeiss Hasselblad 50f4 FLE and the Schneider PC-TS 50f2.8 at 25 to 35mm image radius (Canon 5D2 at full shift) and the HB was sharper, had less CA and less distortion compared to the Schneider. And it achieves 16mm shift radius without vignetting and without sharpness drop (with Mirex shift adapter) while the Schneider only can do 12mm. And that for a fraction of the price:-)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 10:33:06 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 10:21:52 PM »
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Hi,

Many lenses loose about two stops at full aperture. See Hasselblad HC 3.5/50-II plot below, almost 3 stops.

Best regards
Erik



The Hasselblad HC 3.5 50mm-II is part of their new approach to lens design where they cut weight and costs
but then fix the lens with digital correction. It's important to keep in mind that correcting for this is equivalent
to shooting under exposed by two stops and then brightening up in post. This results in a loss of IQ away from the center of the lens.

That is not my idea of progress.
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yaya
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 11:47:55 PM »
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For comparison I put together MTF curves of some 645/66/135PC 50-55 mm retrofocus lenses.
Remarks:
- 100% on the horizontal axis (image circle) is not exactly the same
- the MTF are mostly 10/20/40 l/mm but 15/30/60 for the Schneider lenses and Rodenstock adds data even for 80 l/mm resolution
- all at f8 but Rodenstock at f5.6
- Zeiss Hasselblad is photodo data

The Rodenstock lens has highest and most even MTF but maybe that's more easily achievable due to the shorter register compared than the others.
The Fuji/Hasselblad and the two Zeiss lenses have pretty even and similar high MTF values.
Both Schneider lenses have most wavy MTF.

BTW: I once compared the Zeiss Hasselblad 50f4 FLE and the Schneider PC-TS 50f2.8 at 25 to 35mm image radius (Canon 5D2 at full shift) and the HB was sharper, had less CA and less distortion compared to the Schneider. And it achieves 16mm shift radius without vignetting and without sharpness drop (with Mirex shift adapter) while the Schneider only can do 12mm. And that for a fraction of the price:-)
Hi Chris (and Erik),

It is worth noting that some of the ~50mm MF lenses (Contax, Rollei-Schneider, Mamiya and HC) are/were designed for portraiture and as such they perform best in the centre of the image circle and at short-medium distances. Luminance and sharpness/ resolution away from the centre are less important for typical portrait applications and the same goes for distortion, but they are typically faster @ f2.8

The Zeiss 50mm FLE, Rodenstock 50mm HR and SK 47mm XL on the other hand are/were designed as general purpose lenses suitable for landscape, architecture etc. so they perform well across the frame and at infinity at the cost of being slower (f4-f5.6).

I believe that when you compared the two 50mm lenses (originally designed for Rollei) you've noticed the difference in viewing/focusing experience, with the SK 50/2.8 being brighter and easier to focus.

Horses for courses...if you look at MTF charts with this in mind you'll find that they make some sense...

Best

Yair
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2013, 11:58:55 PM »
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Hi,

Wide angles for typical portrait applications?!

This article gives some insights in wide angle constructions: http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/en_CLB41_Nasse_LensNames_Distagon.pdf

Regarding light fall of, the natural limit is called cos4 , that is the cosine of the ray angle to the power of four. If we assume 56x44 mm and a focal length of 55 mm the ray angle would be 33 degrees, corresponding to 66 degrees of angle of view. The law of cosine four would give two stops of light fall off. Inverted telephoto designs are often a bit better than that.

http://toothwalker.org/optics/vignetting.html

Best regards
Erik


Hi Chris (and Erik),

It is worth noting that some of the ~50mm MF lenses (Contax, Rollei-Schneider, Mamiya and HC) are/were designed for portraiture and as such they perform best in the centre of the image circle and at short-medium distances. Luminance and sharpness/ resolution away from the centre are less important for typical portrait applications and the same goes for distortion, but they are typically faster @ f2.8

The Zeiss 50mm FLE, Rodenstock 50mm HR and SK 47mm XL on the other hand are/were designed as general purpose lenses suitable for landscape, architecture etc. so they perform well across the frame and at infinity at the cost of being slower (f4-f5.6).

I believe that when you compared the two 50mm lenses (originally designed for Rollei) you've noticed the difference in viewing/focusing experience, with the SK 50/2.8 being brighter and easier to focus.

Horses for courses...if you look at MTF charts with this in mind you'll find that they make some sense...

Best

Yair
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 12:19:11 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2013, 11:14:56 AM »
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I've updated our blog to reflect the newer Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses and their respective MTF charts (28mm LS, 150mm LS, 240mm LS).

Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses - Updated

This information has been requested from LL members numerous times in the past, and I've put some effort into collecting the data on their behalf. I also have to thank Ulrich Eilsberger of Schneider for his greatly appreciated assistance.

The publishing of these charts was not intended to be ammunition for those who harbor grudges, agendas and biases. It's a shame that some have decided to use the information for that purpose. What is interesting is that the actual users of these lenses - the people who did pay for them and who use them on a daily basis - don't seem inclined to describe how awful they are. I believe that, generally, when there is bad news, it gets published much more frequently than good news, so you'd think anecdotal information of poor performance would be all over the place. But perhaps they're just missing an agenda.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2013, 11:28:27 AM »
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Hi,
Wide angles for typical portrait applications?!

Erik,
I've seen stunning portraits made with WA - for example, see some of Platon's excellent work: http://platonphoto.com/portraits/arts/index.html

Ed
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2013, 11:49:59 AM »
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+1

I think it's a great service to the community. In my opinion the curves are OK.

Best regards
Erik

I've updated our blog to reflect the newer Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses and their respective MTF charts (28mm LS, 150mm LS, 240mm LS).

Capture Integration MTF Charts for Schneider LS Lenses - Updated

This information has been requested from LL members numerous times in the past, and I've put some effort into collecting the data on their behalf. I also have to thank Ulrich Eilsberger of Schneider for his greatly appreciated assistance.

The publishing of these charts was not intended to be ammunition for those who harbor grudges, agendas and biases. It's a shame that some have decided to use the information for that purpose. What is interesting is that the actual users of these lenses - the people who did pay for them and who use them on a daily basis - don't seem inclined to describe how awful they are. I believe that, generally, when there is bad news, it gets published much more frequently than good news, so you'd think anecdotal information of poor performance would be all over the place. But perhaps they're just missing an agenda.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

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FredBGG
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2013, 01:06:55 PM »
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50mm medium format lenses designed as portrait lenses?Huh

Never heard something so silly.

The angle of view of 50mm on 645 cameras is the closest to human angle of view/visual perception.
It is a very general purpose focal length. That said a fast (relatively fast) 2.8 50mm lens is nice
for environmental portraits, but this story about sharpness only being important in the center
for portraits is not true. many many portraits with wider lenses are taken with the subjects face far from
the center of the frame.

Also just go and look at the brochures of nearly every fast 50mm 645 wide angle lens or (35mm 24x36 lens).
The sample photos are landscapes.

Another thing I have found is that wide angle portrait work is really much better with a tilt shift lens.

The manufacturers can talk it up all they want, but even resolution or at least and smooth gradual fall off in resolution is important for wide angle lenses
be it portrait of landscape. With a wide angle lens features are smaller and hence to be described well need more resolution.

While most Mamiya Phase lenses are excellent when it comes to sharpness there is not an across the lens range consistency.

For example bokeh with the 150mm LS "Schneider" lens is not nice, however the Mamiya 150mm 2.8 is remarkably nice.. I would say
one of the all time best MF lenses.

My point is that the 55mm 2.8 LS is nothing special at all and grossly over priced for what you get.
On the other hand the older non LS Mamiya 55mm is really quite good and excellent for the price.
$ 800 vs over $ 4,000.
I have owned the Mamiya 55mm and tested the 55 LS.
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sgilbert
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2013, 02:10:20 PM »
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"My point is that the 55mm 2.8 LS is nothing special at all and grossly over priced for what you get."

Isn't this redundant?  Both your fans and your detractors surely know your point by now.  You've certainly made it often enough.
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