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Author Topic: Schneider LS Lens MTF Charts  (Read 18886 times)
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2013, 02:48:20 PM »
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(...wiping blown snot from iPhone...)

Could Steve Doug or anyone with a LS55 please post a sample file image taken with the lens so we can
 finally put this issue to rest ?!

That last post was gold ! Time to start a 'Best Of Fred' thread ;-)

Gladly.

Here is an f/5.6 handheld shot with the 55LS at a wedding in Upstate New York I shot earlier in the year. I've taken the liberty of overlaying Fred's chart of where the 55LS shows "quite strong sharpness falloff".

These are 100% crops (default sharpening) from a 60mp back, so printed at 240dpi the print would be nearly 40" long without any upsampling.

You'll have to forgive FredBGG. Since he does not own or shoot with a 55LS all he make his evaluation with is an MTF chart which can be very misleading, especially when comparing MTFs made with different techniques, by different manufacturers, many years apart. See again some resources that explain what you can and can't tell from an MTF curve:


« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 03:25:19 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2013, 02:52:52 PM »
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Doug I bet that the whiff of cloud at the top left is soft as putty Wink
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« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2013, 03:21:39 PM »
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Doug I bet that the whiff of cloud at the top left is soft as putty Wink

Not as soft as the whiffs of cloud in this other 55LS shot I have:

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2013, 03:32:26 PM »
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So if what you are saying about the new Schneider 55mm LS lens is correct is that if I want to take high quality landscape images I would better off buying the Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens on EBay for $395.00?

Before spending the $$$ I'd suggest working with a dealer than can provide you both lenses to test for your own evaluation.

The Mamiya 55AF lens is a good option if budget is a consideration and you don't need a leaf shutter and you don't want to use a tech camera (a Schneider 47XL or 60XL would outperform either lens - and just about any other lens you could compare them to).

Such range of options is one benefit of having the DF/DF+ platform be compatible with a huge range of glass, old and new.

Hopefully as my sample image illustrates the 55LS is no slouch, in fact, quite the opposite; it is a very sharp lens.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2013, 03:34:52 PM »
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:: Yaha and Steve

Hmm, I can't really follow your idea that a lens with lower out-of-center resolution would be designed or especially suitable for portrait shooting because this assumes that the object (esp. the head of the person) is quite exactly in the center of the image.

Enclosed two samples by Contax N 50f1.4 at open aperture with object out of center and good sharpness.
How should such images in sufficient sharpness be possible with the Schneider 55 lens?

Hopefully my sample image posted above shows that Fred's evaluation of the sharpness distribution of this lens (based on his reading of the MTF curves) is simply incorrect. This is the danger of individuals posting what amounts to a strongly negative review of a lens they don't have experience on based on charts and graphs rather than pictures.

Also note that my sample image was taken with a camera three times higher in resolution than the sample images you posted. Higher resolution strains the lens more, and, as you can see the 55LS holds up to the strain very well.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 04:03:50 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2013, 03:48:17 PM »
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Hi Doug,

Thanks for responding to my question and also the sample image in a professional and polite manner not like some.

Cheers

Simon
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Don Libby
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« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2013, 03:48:43 PM »
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Hi Yair and Doug,

So if what you are saying about the new Schneider 55mm LS lens is correct is that if I want to take high quality landscape images I would better off buying the Mamiya 645 AF 55mm lens on EBay for $395.00?

Cheers

Simon

Simon - I've stayed away from this because I feel it's degraded into a who's wiener is larger and who can complain the most about everything and anything dealing with digital medium format post.

To answer your question directly and not speaking for either Yair or Doug (both who's opinion I respect).  I recently got a Schneider 55mm LS lens spending 2-months in the Jackson Hole area this fall.  Based on what I've seen using the 55 with a DF and IQ160 I'd say this makes a very good high quality landscape lens.

I don't have images to share at the moment as I'm not on a computer which have them; I have however posted several images on out blog, just looks backwards to September/October 2012 for them.  I'll be in a better position tomorrow and will post one or two here.

 Don
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2013, 04:02:02 PM »
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I don't have images to share at the moment as I'm not on a computer which have them; I have however posted several images on out blog, just looks backwards to September/October 2012 for them.  I'll be in a better position tomorrow and will post one or two here.

Don I hope you don't mind me linking to your image found here:

This is a beautiful image. It has been such a pleasure to watch here, on GetDPI, and on your blog, as your work has changed and a distinctive style has emerged. I realized recently that I joined this forum in 2007, which makes nearly 6 years I've been watching as some of my favorite photographers and people post, discuss, learn, and otherwise love photography. Given my age that is a significant portion of my adult life.


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« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2013, 04:14:00 PM »
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Don I hope you don't mind me linking to your image found here:

This is a beautiful image. It has been such a pleasure to watch here, on GetDPI, and on your blog, as your work has changed and a distinctive style has emerged. I realized recently that I joined this forum in 2007, which makes nearly 6 years I've been watching as some of my favorite photographers and people post, discuss, learn, and otherwise love photography. Given my age that is a significant portion of my adult life.


Thank you Doug you humble me with your words.

The image Doug posted was taken in Jackson Hole WY is past Fall with the crappy (evil grin) 55LS.
 Grin
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« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2013, 04:41:37 PM »
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Simon let us know if you would like to play with some RAW files. If a lens is designed predominantly for certain applications this does not necessarily mean it won't perform well in other areas...

© me, Credo 60 on 645DF+
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 04:43:31 PM by yaya » Logged

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« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2013, 04:56:09 PM »
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Hi Don,

Lovely image the Autumn leaves are superb.

Yair thanks for the offer.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2013, 06:43:04 PM »
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Thanks for the compliment about my work Smiley

Looking at MTF graphs for canon lenses, why would anyone even bother with Nikon Wink Looking at some of the sample files posted from Doug and others it's pretty obvious the LAST thing the LS 55 is a dog - the images speak for themselves and it's pretty clear how the lens passed through Schneider quality control.

Listening to theories about viewfinder focusing problems with model eyelashes and off center blur from tiny enlargements in a magazine spread (from razor sharp 80MP images at 100% magnification) is wildly entertaining !!  Kiss  Kiss

I'm sure most of your comments are directed at some of the dealers on this forum and you probably get a kick out of wry-ling them up, but I think you're doing a disservice to many readers by constantly bashing medium format and specifically phase one. 35mm isn't for everyone, it really isn't. I hate the format. Not out of snobbery, I just can't compose an image with one, not for jack. I have really shitty eyesight and wear contacts with maximum correction for astigmatism. I focus with the magnifying hood (+diopter) on the hassy, then put on my reading glasses so that I can compose the image on the ground glass. I hate the 35mm format's aspect ratio, it just sucks, no matter what any MTF graph might say. While some may like the format for publication, no matter how wide a lens you get you're always cropping the vertical - it's dreadful. I need space, and lots of it, and it's why I shoot SQUARE. I'm an artist and I love the square and if black and white photography wouldn't exist I would be drawing or painting gigantic SQUARES Smiley  I once considered a Fuji 680... until I saw one for real. It's a brick, and I can't imagine ever mountaineering with one, or stuffing one in my backpack, or taking one with me on my bike.

The technical cameras made by arca swiss cambo and alpa are fantastic cameras, as are the medium format digital backs made by Phase One. They're not crap - FAR from it, and neither are their lenses. While I find your comments very entertaining - you're doing a disservice to all the other readers who might be considering MFD with your fuzzy math. Not everyone is a fashion or wedding photographer. If there is a valid criticism to the format it's the astronomical cost of entry that makes it prohibitively expensive for artists like me to get into, and that's a damn shame.


Paul


So a Phase One photographer who needs to shoot with a 33x44 sensor and wants a normal lens angle of view has to shoot with a lens designed for portrait and lifestyle.
How silly is that?
Same thing goes for the owner of a full frame MF back that want's to shoot architecture with a slightly wide angle lens.

Why in the hell would Phase One / Mamiya / Schneider develop a normal lens for 33x44 backs that is not designed as a general purpose lens?

I think it's more about the 55LS being a bit of a dog and giving it the lifestyle and "editorial portrait" attribution because that stuff is predominantly published smaller,
unlike landscape and architecture.

Regarding descriptions the old non LS Mamiya 55 2.8 is described as a general purpose lens.



The original Mamiya is a 2.8 so still has shallow depth of field and really apart from the leaf shutter there is nothing wrong about it
for shooting "editorial portraits" or "lifestyle".

However I think that especially for file style a fast 24-70mm 2.8 on a 6 to 10 fps dslr would be a far better choice even if overpowering the sun or fill in flash is needed.

The Canon 24-70 II is quite a step forward.





Here is a good example of it wide open and showing nice bokeh.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bims2008/8351883090/sizes/l/in/pool-2121875@N22/

The 55mm 2.8 does not look to good when compared:


In the Canon graph the thin continuous lines corresponds to 30 cycles. Blue is wide open and black is at f8
In the Phase One/Schneider graph the middle line corresponds to 30 cycles.

Also keep in mind that when comparing a 36mm sensor width with a 44mm sensor witch you will need to enlarge the 36mm image a bit more.



Even with that in mind the modern Canon zoom hold up well against the older 55mm 2.8 LS.

Canon 24-70mm 2.8 II $2,299
Phase Schneider 55 2.8 LS $ 4,290

Even the cheap ass Canon 50mm 1.8 holds up quite well for a $ 150 lens.



Actually at f8 the 30 cycle line is quite remarkable. Sharp dropoff in the very corners, but no big dip roller coaster graph.

And before a riot starts ... I'm not suggesting anyone go out and buy the 50mm 1.8 II....



 
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2013, 07:42:22 PM »
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Paul if your seriously interested in the 55LS lens I have plenty of images shot with the p40 and IQ 160 that PROVE the REAL reality how good this lens really is . I will always help those that want the truth in these things otherwise any posted image here is frankly just worthless and a waste of my time to even post. It will always suck since it has Phases name on it and we all know that by now. Send me a e-mail I have many posted already but I'm busy taking care of a family member once again so I'm limited on my time on the forums.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2013, 08:54:33 PM »
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Hi Doug,

Thanks for sharing! Nice shot, by the way. I also like that you have good detail on the dark parts of the image, a few of the samples posted seemed to have very little detail in the blacks.

Which back were you using, P65+?

To my surprise I think I see some problems with sharpness on a single crop, left one enclosed below. That is well outside the red circle. The crops on the red circle are very sharp in my view.

Getting back to the MTF curves, I'm actually a bit curious. I don't think that lens is seriously bad, but the 60 lp/mm actually drops to near zero value. On the other hand, 40 lp/mm is probably quite OK. We are talking about a large sensor. The 40 lp/mm on the P65+ (?) would correspond to someting like 60-80 lp/mm on 135, depending on your crop.

I have not seen any MTF plots on Canon lenses at 40/60/80 lp/mm so I cannot speculate on that.

I have recently tested a Sonnar 150/4 at f/8 compared with some Sony Alpha Zooms. These lenses are at medium telephoto range where well designed lenses are very good and on axis.



The plots indicate that good lenses still transfer decent contrast (20%) at say 80 lp/mm. But 80 lp/mm really correspond to something like 45 lp/mm on full frame (depending on crop) where the Schneider would still have say 35-45% MTF at the weakest point.

Also, it would be my theory that the drop at 22 mm on the Schneider would be an issue with wavy field, so just putting focus in that area would improve rendition. So would you put focus on say eye-lashes in that are and focus on the lashes, MTF would improve (be better than in chart) in that zone. Stopping down more may also be helpful.

Best regards
Erik



Gladly.

Here is an f/5.6 handheld shot with the 55LS at a wedding in Upstate New York I shot earlier in the year. I've taken the liberty of overlaying Fred's chart of where the 55LS shows "quite strong sharpness falloff".

These are 100% crops (default sharpening) from a 60mp back, so printed at 240dpi the print would be nearly 40" long without any upsampling.

You'll have to forgive FredBGG. Since he does not own or shoot with a 55LS all he make his evaluation with is an MTF chart which can be very misleading, especially when comparing MTFs made with different techniques, by different manufacturers, many years apart. See again some resources that explain what you can and can't tell from an MTF curve:


« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 09:45:44 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2013, 10:01:03 PM »
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Doesn't look either natural or sharp to me. (not a creative critique... the photo is a fun image  Smiley)
Colors and contrast look punched up. Eyeballs are blueish, irises are exageratedly dark (even the fair hired girl and lady), wedding dress, and white shirts. Overall tonality is just unnatural.
Blown out highlights and crunched blacks. This kind of exaggerated contrast produces apparent sharpness.

I find the fine detail looks unnatural in both the grass and hair. Even softer less contrasty detail can look far more natural and descriptive than that.

For example look at this image that is shot with the 80mm 2.8 LS despite it being shot wide open.

Image URL http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/full961.jpg
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/15641-anyone-got-phase-110mm-schneider-ls-lens-yet.html

Corner crop
Image URL http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/lcentercrop961.jpg

Way more natural looking, far more descriptive despite the slight flare due to the crop being corner frame and shot wide open rather than at f5.6.

Also look at these crops (same size in frame as Doug's crops) from a Hasselblad image.



Far more natural rendering and you can even see dust particles on the subject.

But lets also look at a Canon 17mm lens infront of a Leaf 80MP sensor and HCam:



Crops:





In this last one look at how well and NATURALLY the flowers in the windows are described, compared to the flowers in the grass.

I think it's quite remarkable that an ultra wide angle Canon ultra wide angle 17mm  Tilt shift lens that costs $ 2,180 can out preform a fixed moderate wideangle (normal lens for an IQ140) 55mm "Schneider" lens that costs $ 4,290.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 11:04:26 PM by FredBGG » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2013, 10:10:08 PM »
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Hello,

Firstly I am not trying to be a s...t stirring here but due to the fact that the Mamiya 645 C 55mm F2.8N has an extra element in its configuration would it be a sharper lens overall especially in the far corners of the image.

It would be interesting to compare it against the new 55LS lens.

I know that my Mamiya 50mm F4.0 shift lens is very sharp from edge to edge.

Ciao

Simon
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Simon Harper
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« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2013, 10:42:40 PM »
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Don I hope you don't mind me linking to your image found here:

This is a beautiful image. It has been such a pleasure to watch here, on GetDPI, and on your blog, as your work has changed and a distinctive style has emerged. I realized recently that I joined this forum in 2007, which makes nearly 6 years I've been watching as some of my favorite photographers and people post, discuss, learn, and otherwise love photography. Given my age that is a significant portion of my adult life.




Lovely image. Wonderful manipulation of color while still portraying the natural beauty of the place. A very nice interpretation.
In particular how far you have gone with the color and contrast while maintaining a earthly nature to the image.
as is the other picture on the same page taken with the Canon zoom. A lens does not have to be particularly good to produce
a beautiful image if the photographer is skilled and the location is beautiful.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 10:46:55 PM by FredBGG » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2013, 11:02:13 PM »
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Hi,

I have not found any MTF of the 55, but:
"The Mamiya 55 mm f/2.8 AF lens, which I purchased used, at first did not impress me all that much, because I was looking at it from the perspective of performance at 5.6 and 8. However after testing a manual focus f/2.8 45 mm N lens, and finding is much worse, I went back for another two rounds of testing and decided that with only one corner of the 55 being noticeably weak at f/8, and that corner luckily being the top right with the camera in horizontal position, that this 55 was actually excellent. When the camera is in either vertical or horizontal position, the weak corner is always at the top, and thus more likely to be filled with subject matter that will not reveal a problem (e.g. sky). Besides, the 55 is incredible at f/11 and up. So chalk up one success out of one lens tried. The sample is too small to tell, but one success out of one is a much better sign than one failure out of one. Also, other photographers' comments on this lens have been quite complementary. Oh — I almost forgot. There was one other 55 AF, which a friend tested and showed me the results: it was a good one also. Although I did not see a test shot which revealed the performance of all four corners, the behavior in two of the four corners and throughout most of the rest of the frame was superb at f/8. So without knowing about the two top corners at f/8 with that lens, I'll go out on a limb and call that two for two — an even better sign for this design."

From this article, worth reading: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html

Best regards
Erik


Hello,

Firstly I am not trying to be a s...t stirring here but due to the fact that the Mamiya 645 C 55mm F2.8N has an extra element in its configuration would it be a sharper lens overall especially in the far corners of the image.

It would be interesting to compare it against the new 55LS lens.

I know that my Mamiya 50mm F4.0 shift lens is very sharp from edge to edge.

Ciao

Simon
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2013, 12:14:56 AM »
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Hi,

In part I agree with FredBG. But, this is in my view one of the better wedding pictures posted and I actually like the rendition of shadow detail.

The part I agree with FredBG on is that fine detail reproduction is odd. What ISO was used?

The grass looks good to me, I see some aliasing but otherwise just fine. The aliasing indicates that lens outresolves sensor (OK has > 20% MTF at Nyquist).

Could it be a combination of noise reduction and sharpening in the darks.



In the picture above the hair of the young lady shows some moiré, that indicates that there is detail in the image the sensor cannot resolve, so lower frequency artifacts are shown instead. The face eye and eybrows don't show a typical sharp noise pattern, so I guess some noise reduction is in play and some sharpening. That may all be default in raw converter.

Best regards
Erik


Doesn't look either natural or sharp to me. (not a creative critique... the photo is a fun image  Smiley)
Colors and contrast look punched up. Eyeballs are blueish, irises are exageratedly dark (even the fair hired girl and lady), wedding dress, and white shirts. Overall tonality is just unnatural.
Blown out highlights and crunched blacks. This kind of exaggerated contrast produces apparent sharpness.

I find the fine detail looks unnatural in both the grass and hair. Even softer less contrasty detail can look far more natural and descriptive than that.


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« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2013, 01:45:07 AM »
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I agree with Fred!
The details shown in the wedding-photo are not impressing.
I can't see any loss of sharpness along the "Fred-Ring", but on the other hand
it would be very hard to see in this picture. Maybe it was shot in iso 200?

Henrik
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