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Author Topic: Care & feeding of Lithium battery  (Read 3185 times)
walter.sk
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« on: January 18, 2013, 11:22:21 AM »
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I've been using my 5D III since this past July.  On trips I have shot all day, up to 1100 RAW images without completely running the battery down.  When not on trips I will usually shoot 350-800 images, leaving the battery with from 50% - 70% of its capacity.  I recently read that it is better for battery longevity to recharge it before the remaining charge drops below say, 30% to 50%.  Aside from the safety provided by having a charged backup battery, which I always used to do with my 1DII, which would maximize battery life:  Using only one battery and simply recharging it after each shoot, or using 2 batteries and alternating them?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 11:23:57 AM by walter.sk » Logged
K.C.
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2013, 01:34:22 PM »
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Lithium Ion batteries do not suffer from memory effect so there is no advantage to discharging the battery completely before recharging. That's one of the advantages of LI batteries, use it, charge before next use and you're always starting with a full capacity battery.
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opgr
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 01:39:40 PM »
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Lithium Ion batteries do not suffer from memory effect so there is no advantage to discharging the battery completely before recharging. That's one of the advantages of LI batteries, use it, charge before next use and you're always starting with a full capacity battery.

Yes, but I also recall that they should not be completely depleted because they'll be dead. (Wasn't that the problem with the Tesla roadster?). But certainly one should be able to go below 30%.
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Regards,
Oscar Rysdyk
theimagingfactory
martinreed22
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 04:02:29 PM »
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Useful info on LiOn batteries.

http://www.apple.com/batteries/

martin
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kaelaria
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 06:32:52 AM »
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Our batteries are not those used in RC vehicles, cars etc. There is nothing special we need to do.  You are confusing them for LiPo cells.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2013, 08:29:05 AM »
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I've been using my 5D III since this past July.  On trips I have shot all day, up to 1100 RAW images without completely running the battery down.  When not on trips I will usually shoot 350-800 images, leaving the battery with from 50% - 70% of its capacity.  I recently read that it is better for battery longevity to recharge it before the remaining charge drops below say, 30% to 50%.

Hi Walter,

That's apparently correct. The moral of the story appears to be, do not discharge below 10% capacity, and do not fully charge, if longevity is your goal.

The real issue is that we rarely get a reliable charger feedback as to the charge state. Of course, when total session capacity needs to be maximized for a period with limited or no charging capability, there is no alternative to a full charge.

Quote
Aside from the safety provided by having a charged backup battery, which I always used to do with my 1DII, which would maximize battery life:  Using only one battery and simply recharging it after each shoot, or using 2 batteries and alternating them?

That would probably offer the best of both worlds, using a well charged battery in the camera, and letting the backup battery fall to some 30% charge level before recharging and promoting it to be the active one in the camera. Don't overdo the full charge cycle, unplug early. You may be able to use the temperature of the cell as an indicator. When it starts to cool off, it is at or near full charge.

Cheers,
Bart
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walter.sk
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2013, 08:37:30 AM »
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Thanks all, for the replies.  I think in my situation I'd be OK with one battery.  And since I have 2 other cameras with me when I shoot, if the battery suddenly fails, the 1DII comes out of the bag.
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2013, 10:06:51 AM »
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The moral of the story appears to be, do not discharge below 10% capacity,
This is somewhat complicated by the fact that LiIon battery packs have built in circuitry to prevent total discharge. This means that in normal use the actual cells will never fully discharge in use, even if the pack stops working.
So in real use you don't need to worry to much about running them until they fail. What IS important is that any battery that hits it's discharge limit is then recharged reasonably promptly. If a LiIon battery pack stops working and is them left to self discharge (this can takes weeks) and the cells fully discharge they then can't be recharged at all. So any LiIon powered kit needs to be regularly run and charged, not left in a drawer for months.

For me, I carry a spare battery and alternate their use. Mostly a battery in my 5DII works for a full day, but if I start using live view or shoot any video battery life starts to get a bit marginal. In the overall picture a spare for a 5D costs very little and doesn't take up much space or weight.
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kikashi
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2013, 11:27:12 AM »
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I gather they're not to be taken onto B787s.

Jeremy
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thierrylegros396
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2013, 01:05:34 PM »
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Please read this.

The biggest Li-Po battery manufacturer (Kokam) has made a lot of tests about Life vs DoD (Depth of Discharge).

When you use the battery @100% DoD, Battery Life is about 300-500 cycles.

But if you use it @only 50% DoD, you may expect more than 10000 cycles !!!

So if you want the longest Life, charge it to max 80% (about 4.0V/cell) and discharge it to min 30% (about 3.2V/cell).

And it's the same with Li-Ion batteries.

Have a Nice Day.

Thierry
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K.C.
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2013, 09:05:00 PM »
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Please read this.

And now that you've read that. Read this:

This is somewhat complicated by the fact that LiIon battery packs have built in circuitry to prevent total discharge. This means that in normal use the actual cells will never fully discharge in use, even if the pack stops working.

Which is the reality of the situation.

Your camera and charger are managing your battery so that you don't run into a full discharge. Unless you run it down and then leave it sitting discharged for a month you'll never have an issue.

You can read what the manufacturer learned in testing, but that was raw cells, not the battery in your camera.

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Glenn NK
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 12:37:55 AM »
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I gather they're not to be taken onto B787s.

Jeremy

 Cheesy  Grin

Sorry, but I love it.
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thierrylegros396
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 02:23:47 AM »
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And now that you've read that. Read this:

Which is the reality of the situation.

Your camera and charger are managing your battery so that you don't run into a full discharge. Unless you run it down and then leave it sitting discharged for a month you'll never have an issue.

You can read what the manufacturer learned in testing, but that was raw cells, not the battery in your camera.


Do what you want, I don't mind !

My batteries last many times longer than my friend ones who don't care about.
The integrated circuitry in the battery and the charger prevent for deep discharge and overcharge, but don't care about longevity.

If you want your batteries last longer, don't let them discharge too much.
Charging to 80% is difficult, because the charger does not indicate accurately real charge.
So if you use it immediately after charging, you may charge the battery to full charge.

But if the battery has to stay for months without use, you have to check the voltage.
Store them at about 3.7 to 3.8V/cell.

Many manufacturers give that advice.

Thierry
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 05:50:46 AM »
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Some practical experience.  I have had my Canon 1dS Mk3 for five years and bought it with two batteries.  Since then it has been my main workhorse camera and the batteries have been recharged hundreds of times in the supplied Canon dual charger.  It has to be admitted that I rarely run the batteries right down, usually to around 20%, but do always charge them back up to 100%.

Over those five years I have not noticed any drop in performance at all.  This is an incredible improvement over the previous generation Canon batteries.  I can still go to a wedding and shoot all day (perhaps a 1000 pictures) and still the battery is showing 40-50% capacity.  I always take a spare but never needed it for any job.  Because they are such high capacity it's never necessary to discharge them fully.  We went to Tuscany last year to do some landscape photography for a week and I didn't even take the charger! (I did have a Panasonic GH2 as well - with charger).

This is not a definitive answer to the original question, but I would say for most practical purposes - don't worry about it!

Jim
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lowep
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2013, 08:37:13 AM »
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Does a terminally-ill li-ion battery get spasms before it dies? I left 3 of mine uncharged for too long. When I attempted to recharge them 2 function like new but the third one runs my camera for a few minutes then starts switching it on and off like a strobe light. I figure whatever is causing the problem that battery is probably unsalvageable. But am just curious about why it is behaving as it does?
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francois
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 08:47:40 AM »
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Some practical experience.  I have had my Canon 1dS Mk3 for five years and bought it with two batteries.  Since then it has been my main workhorse camera and the batteries have been recharged hundreds of times in the supplied Canon dual charger.  It has to be admitted that I rarely run the batteries right down, usually to around 20%, but do always charge them back up to 100%.

Over those five years I have not noticed any drop in performance at all.  This is an incredible improvement over the previous generation Canon batteries.  I can still go to a wedding and shoot all day (perhaps a 1000 pictures) and still the battery is showing 40-50% capacity.  I always take a spare but never needed it for any job.  Because they are such high capacity it's never necessary to discharge them fully.  We went to Tuscany last year to do some landscape photography for a week and I didn't even take the charger! (I did have a Panasonic GH2 as well - with charger).

This is not a definitive answer to the original question, but I would say for most practical purposes - don't worry about it!

Jim

I have the very same experience with my 1Ds3 batteries. I rotate them and only take a charger for longer travels…
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Francois
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2013, 06:04:36 PM »
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Care and feeding?

Do not install in carbon fiber airliners. Otherwise don't worry. There's some, possibly apocryphal, advice out there to keep levels at around 80-percent for the longest life, but by and large if they don't ignite, you might as well just use and forget.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 09:17:42 PM »
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I hear they tend to like classical music. Playing Chopin one hour a day to a Li battery would result in an improvement of long term battery life that can easily be computed using basic reverse Poison integro differential equations.

At least for genuine Nikon batteries.

Cheers,
Bernard
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lowep
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 12:09:56 AM »
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i believe same goes for humans and the great white shark
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kikashi
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 02:43:03 AM »
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I hear they tend to like classical music. Playing Chopin one hour a day to a Li battery would result in an improvement of long term battery life that can easily be computed using basic reverse Poison integro differential equations.

At least for genuine Nikon batteries.

Canon batteries prefer Mozart, I'm told, and the view isn't uncommon: see this.

Jeremy
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