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Author Topic: Can the war beween D800 users and MF users resist to Scheimpflung ?  (Read 11032 times)
esox
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« on: January 21, 2013, 03:01:03 PM »
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I see many posts about the fact that D800 killed MFDB. But... As far as I know (I may be wrong) you can't do tilt/shift with a D800 as you do with a view camera. Because of micro lenses used on the D800. Right or wrong ? The Nikon 24mm Tilt/Shift lense doesn't do it the you do it with a view camera. Only digital backs can do it no ? Doing a nice Scheimpflung with a D800 seems to be not possible.

Also when one needs to do big enlargements (2m or more) then the DB still is the king in its realm no ?
diffrence of my
So why comparing the two systems ? Is a Honda supercar better than a Ferrari ? It's as fast, as safe (or as unsafe...). But... And it's not olny a cosmetic subject. For sure using a Hassy H or a Phase one system to shoot sport is not the easiest choise. Bit some do it and it's just beautiful.

Why do all the images I love and that the aspect nails me on the wall are all coming from MFDB ? Question of precision/sharpness allied to smooth transitions. A bit like the difference between my beloved Hassy V lenses compared to the Mamyia RZ lenses. Both are wonderful, but different. I highly prefer the presision and smouthness (sorry I'm not english, so I may not use the correct words, I hope you will understand my thought).

A question : if you can have a Hassy H or phase one system or Alpa system for the price of a D800 system, wich one will you choose ?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 03:16:20 PM »
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There are several tilt-swing options for Nikon: first party and third party TS lenses and adapters for view cameras. There are several tilt-swing options for digital backs: TS SLR lenses (though fewer than for 35mm) and tech/view camera mounts. If using a tech camera and/or view camera is acceptable in your workflow (it's slower in most cases, requiring more time per shot) then I'd argue that there are more/better tilt-swing options for digital backs than a D800. However, I don't think such sweeping statements are very useful in comparing two very different systems. Each system comes with a set of advantages, disadvantages, capabilities, and limitations. Much better to ask yourself how you would use what is available for each system to get the results you want.

A question : if you can have a Hassy H or phase one system or Alpa system for the price of a D800 system, wich one will you choose ?

It depends entirely on what I want to shoot and how I want to shoot it*.

For instance I wouldn't shoot sports with a Phase+TechCam even if you gave me the system for free.

Sweeping landscape shots? I'd take the Phase+TechCam every time.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 03:37:06 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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esox
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 03:41:33 PM »
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So we agree, except that I souls take the phase one to shoot sport, but I soule never go to the stadium, instead I would go to the Rocky mountains to do paysage
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Mike Sellers
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 03:46:10 PM »
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I just read that noted landscape photographer Jack Dykinga has switched from 4x5 view camera to a Nikon d800e and all three Nikon T/S lenses.
Mike Sellers
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 11:31:20 PM »
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Hi,

Dead wrong! You can used TS on Nikons, there are T&S Nikon lenses, although they don't seem to be specially good. You can put almost any MF lens on a Nikon with tilt/shift adapters from Mirex or tilt adapters from ARAX. Any lens designed for an SLR will be telecentric and have very little problems with lens cast.

With MF you would either use T/S lenses, the Hasselblad HTS or use symmetric (Biogon type) lenses on technical camera. The last option will have significant problems with lens cast, specially on backs using microlenses. The IQ 180 is said to have microlenses.

If you want to use Scheimpflug, live view is essential in my humble opinion.

I actually believe that MF has some advantages over latest generation DSLR. Lenses may be better, in part. The larger sensor collects more photons, all other factors kept equal, that would result in smoother midtones. The larger format gives advantages in sharpness.

I got some great comparison images from IQ180 compared to Nikon D800 from two owners of both cameras. One of the owners is selling off his IQ180 and the other seems to use it less frequently.

This page compares IQ180 on Alpa with a D800E with a Leica lens (with kind permission of Marc McCalmont):
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts?start=5

This page compares IQ180 with Zeiss 24/2 on Nikon D800 (with kind permission of Tim Parkin), IQ 180 wins I would say.
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts?start=6

I played around with Scheimpflug on my Sony Alpha 99, here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/73-sonnar-150-cb-on-dslr-using-arax-tilt-adapter?start=5

To sum up:

DSLRs will have less problems with lens cast when using TS than MF technical cameras.

DSLRs also have wide range of options to use MF lenses for TS.

The best choice may be an MF-back on a "pan cake" technical camera like the Hartblei H-Cam or the Alpa FPS.

Would a medium end digital back cost like a Nikon D800 I would go and buy Hartblei H-Cam with a Canon 17/4 TS (which works well with MF backs according to Stefan Steib). Than I would buy a Mirex adapter and use dirt cheap Hasselblad V lenses and my Pentax 67 lenses. That's what I would do.

I still think live view is essential on digital backs. I don't know how well that works on the IQ-series, but IQ does not cost like a D800.

Best regards
Erik


  




I see many posts about the fact that D800 killed MFDB. But... As far as I know (I may be wrong) you can't do tilt/shift with a D800 as you do with a view camera. Because of micro lenses used on the D800. Right or wrong ? The Nikon 24mm Tilt/Shift lense doesn't do it the you do it with a view camera. Only digital backs can do it no ? Doing a nice Scheimpflung with a D800 seems to be not possible.

Also when one needs to do big enlargements (2m or more) then the DB still is the king in its realm no ?
diffrence of my
So why comparing the two systems ? Is a Honda supercar better than a Ferrari ? It's as fast, as safe (or as unsafe...). But... And it's not olny a cosmetic subject. For sure using a Hassy H or a Phase one system to shoot sport is not the easiest choise. Bit some do it and it's just beautiful.

Why do all the images I love and that the aspect nails me on the wall are all coming from MFDB ? Question of precision/sharpness allied to smooth transitions. A bit like the difference between my beloved Hassy V lenses compared to the Mamyia RZ lenses. Both are wonderful, but different. I highly prefer the presision and smouthness (sorry I'm not english, so I may not use the correct words, I hope you will understand my thought).

A question : if you can have a Hassy H or phase one system or Alpa system for the price of a D800 system, wich one will you choose ?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 11:48:28 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 11:45:17 PM »
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Tilt and shift in my opinion is a very useful function.
I have shot for many years with the Fuji gx680 as well as 8x10.
I find tilt shift to be a tremendous asset even in fashion, beauty and portrait.

For example I love to shoot fashion with shallow depth of field. With the Fuji regardless of focal length I
can do both perspective correction and focus correction.

I use shift a lot in portraits especially when shooting slightly up.

Here is an example:



I find it lets me get closer with a slightly shorter focal length for a more intimate feel
while still having faltering perspective.

Here i used swing (horizontal tilt) for keep two models on two different planes in focus
while shooting wide open:


No swing


With swing.

Here are the lens movements:


All independent.

Unfortunately medium format digital does not have much support for Lens movements
unless you go with a tech camera, but they are a pain to use with tilt shift due to the lack of true fast live view

Using a tilt shift with a Hasselblad H or Phase One camera I find focusing to be a pain in the ass.
Viewfinder magnification is too low and autofocus points are only in the center of the screen.

Then there is the limitation of available lenses for MFD. With the DF you are limited pretty much to the
Schneider 120mm PC-TS f 5.6. It's slow and dark.

and the  645 Hartblei 45mm 3.5 Super Rotator.

Both Canon and Nikon offer a broader range.

Canon has:

17mm 4.0
24mm 3.5
45mm 2.8
90mm 2.8

Nikon has :
24mm 3.5
45mm 2.8
85mm 2.8

All have automatic iris, live view and on sensor focusing on both Canon and Nikon make
focusing and setup very nice, especially when using a 2K HDMI monitor.

There are also 3rd party options for Canon and Nikon from Schnieder, Hartblei, and "toy lenses" from lens baby.
There are also adapters that let you use many MF lenses such as Hasselblad V lenses on Nikon and Canon that let you tilt shift them.

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esox
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 11:48:57 PM »
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That means that he is also switchîg from film to digital. Wich is another thing to take into consideratin.

Interesting Thérèse regarding long exposure http://scottreither.com/blogwp/tag/d800e/
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FredBGG
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 11:54:57 PM »
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I just read that noted landscape photographer Jack Dykinga has switched from 4x5 view camera to a Nikon d800e and all three Nikon T/S lenses.
Mike Sellers

Yup:

Quote
Jack's Pack?
 
Now a complete Nikon convert, Jack carries two Nikon D800e cameras and a D3s Nikon as well.  All have Really Right Stuff “L” brackets.

He has all three Nikkor perspective correction lenses: 24mm, 45mm, and the 85mm.

In addition, the 70-300 VR Zoom, and the incomparable 14-24mm Nikkor wide-angle zoom.

A 200mm Micro-Nikkor, a 200-400 Nikkor zoom and a loaner 600mm lens offers a wide range of coverage possibilities.

Nikon’s intervalometers  help with long time exposures and The Lightning Trigger help capture storm drama.

Field downloads are to a Apple MacbookPro equipped with both and standard 500mb hard drive and a 500mb solid-state drive.  It has 8 gigs of ram and Jack always wants more….

[/url]

In particular the full set of tilt shift lenses.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 11:56:35 PM »
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Hi,

If you stay with film there are plenty of options...

Most MF backs are not suited to long exposures, the P45+ is an exception.

I have not seen problems with long exposures, but I seldom expose long. In general, when using long exposures you need to do dark frame subtraction. The cameras ten to do this automatically. No issue with 30 second exposures but would be bad for two hours.


Best regards
Erik

That means that he is also switchîg from film to digital. Wich is another thing to take into consideratin.

Interesting Thérèse regarding long exposure http://scottreither.com/blogwp/tag/d800e/
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esox
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 12:01:14 AM »
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Well I wasn't précise enough : I was considering T/S on a view camera vs DSLR (médium or small format). As I do it with my brave Sinar f2 on 4x5 films. Of course all of that depends of the image circle of the lense.

Regarding what Erik said on using Hassy V lenses on DSLR. It works, of course, but the résolution of those lenses (I havé a few of them) semés to be far from the size of the pixels on a DSLR.
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esox
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 12:04:14 AM »
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F..ck m'y damned ipad still but me some french words as i type in english...
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 12:14:26 AM by esox » Logged
esox
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 12:25:30 AM »
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Another concern : I very often shoot sunsets with the sun right in the middle of the lense. No issue with my Hassy V with T* lenses. But with my dslr (oly) it´s a nightmare, no way to have a sharp sun with color into it, it´s a wite circle and the light kind of overflaw the photosites. It seems to be problem with small photosites. I also had the issue on a canon dslr ( dont remember wich one). I.m afraid the D800 has lts of chances to have the same issue. Didńt have that issue with a H4D50.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 01:04:34 AM »
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Hi,

OK, you are moving from film to digital?

I have tested an old Sonnar 150/4 on my Sony Alpha 77 (and also 99). It was nearly perfect indoor, but had problems outside with flare.

Regarding the issue with shooting into the sun, it is a problem with digital, irrespective of pixel size. Film saturates softly, digital clips. The best way to handle in digital may be HDR. It doesn't work perfectly, but the technique can be polished.

I enclose two images, one is a HDR made from two exposure 3EV apart and one made from a three stop underexposed picture.

May be of some assistance.

By the way, here is a link to one of my Scheimpflug demos, full image 6000x4000 pixels (I believe) http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Images/Zeissness_3/Scheimpflug/Full_image-4.jpg

Sonnar 150/4 at f/11 8degree tilt on ARAX adapter, no shift.

Best regards
Erik




Another concern : I very often shoot sunsets with the sun right in the middle of the lense. No issue with my Hassy V with T* lenses. But with my dslr (oly) it´s a nightmare, no way to have a sharp sun with color into it, it´s a wite circle and the light kind of overflaw the photosites. It seems to be problem with small photosites. I also had the issue on a canon dslr ( dont remember wich one). I.m afraid the D800 has lts of chances to have the same issue. Didńt have that issue with a H4D50.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 01:06:07 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

esox
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 01:24:21 AM »
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Here is what I want to do concerning the sun: http://jeanmabar.fr/route-des-cretes-et-pointe-rouge/ specialy the images where the sun is still yellow.

Regarding your scheimpflung, what body did you use ?
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Gel
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 02:23:58 AM »
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The D800 has it's strengths but for pure unadulterated image quality the something like the H4D40 or 50 beat it hands down.

The D800 is one of those 'It's nice but' cameras.

You can get movements on a H body with the TS 1.5 albeit not full spread like the GX680. Like with anything though it's all on balance. I like to shoot film but even though I have an RZ67 I won't take that everywhere. So the H1 and back will suffice.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 02:27:17 AM »
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Sony Alpha 99, focused by live view on WMF mark on the knife.

Best regards
Erik


Here is what I want to do concerning the sun: http://jeanmabar.fr/route-des-cretes-et-pointe-rouge/ specialy the images where the sun is still yellow.

Regarding your scheimpflung, what body did you use ?
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gfsymon
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 03:10:33 AM »
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F..ck m'y damned ipad still but me some french words as i type in english...

Add the English keyboard in the prefs (qwerty) and use that when writing in English.  Spelling correction changes automatically according to the selected keyboard.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 04:09:21 AM »
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Hi,

I am typing on an iPad, too. I think you can do sun shots on DSLR, but you need to avoid overexposure. I will check if I have any images like that. Film handles that stuff better.

Best regards
Erik

Here is what I want to do concerning the sun: http://jeanmabar.fr/route-des-cretes-et-pointe-rouge/ specialy the images where the sun is still yellow.

Regarding your scheimpflung, what body did you use ?
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esox
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 04:37:27 AM »
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Sony Alpha 99, focused by live view on WMF mark on the knife.

Best regards
Erik



Because it seems there is moiré on the tablecloth...   Wink
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esox
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2013, 04:44:41 AM »
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Here is what I want to avoid, it is really underexposed, but still no texture in the sun. With Hassy and a provia ou ekta, I wouldn't have such problem.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 04:46:12 AM by esox » Logged
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