Charging for Travel

[Jeffery Salter]

The question, Jeffery, simply was: If they did ask for a reduction on your estimate or they didn't what to pay for one or more of the things you had listed on your quote, do they then get less from you at the end of the day ?

For example, would they now get less images or would they not now be able to use the images as much or would the images now look different - since they weren't prepared to pay for this item you had listed !!

Bob here asked about 'Charging for Travel', so the line items I'm obviously referring to, would be your travel time & travel expenses. Which means the related question to his question would be: What happens if they don't want to pay for either one or other of these two things - but they still would like you to produce & provide them with some images to use ?

Yes, reducing the shot list is a way of bringing the  job estimate in line with the budget.  Yes, reducing the amount of time on the Usage license is a way of bringing the job estimate  to meet the budget.

Yes and no, in regards to if the images will look different, it depends on the comp or layout.  For example a photographer can set-up a large soft box near the model to give a window light look or a photographer can place the subject near a window on a sunny day to get the same look.  It all depends on what the Artistic direction needed for a particular ad.  However this is where the power of your portfolio comes in....if they want your vision and you need XYZ light or XYZ camera they will make room for you to get what you need to execute the shot.

In regards to the quality of work done on the agreed upon shot list, as a professional one would hope you always do your best work on the project at hand.  

Many photographers (including myself) sometimes go through an agent to do the negotiate the fees.  Which allows the photographer to deal with the creative aspects of the project.

As I said early if you and the client cannot agreed upon the various fees (Travel and travel time) then.... A. Say "no"   B.  They can call the next photographer on the list.   C. Or look for room in the budget to charge more to cover your travel expenses.  

In my earlier posts I have supplied links to several  professional photography organizations and business software that caters to photographers at various career levels  to  help them with negotiating and estimating assignments.

Please feel free to check out those very informative links which quite possibly explain what I'm trying to say more succinctly.

My apologizes to Bob if I didn't offer any advice to help him with his travel and travel time expense issue.

Thank you,
Jeffery

Here is a frame grab of my travel expense on a recent Annual report (2012)

[Jeffery Salter]

So the question here is: If you list these things as optional extras and they don't want to pay you for them, what difference would it make to them ?

It's called "Production costs"  which list items needed for you do the assignment.  Travel, lights, model fees, digital production fees and etc.   If they don't want to pay the production cost then they don't get any pictures.

Or they call another photographer who has different production costs.

This forum is called " Pro business"  and to be in business one must get there "production costs"  met.  Either through getting clients who understand what it takes to execute certain visual concepts or by the photographer lowering his "cost of doing business"  

Thank you,
Jeffery

[Yelhsa]

As I said early if you and the client cannot agreed upon the various fees (Travel and travel time) then.... A. Say "no"   B.  They can call the next photographer on the list.   C. Or look for room in the budget to charge more to cover your travel expenses.  

Since A & B are basically the same thing, then maybe your 3rd suggested option here to Bob should be, to re-look at what you are actually charging them for.
Because it was when I did that, that I found away around this common problem.

So Bob, if you don't happen to be working for clients at 'the top-end of the advertising business in the north of America', like Jeffery - or who don't fully understand how it all works at 'the top-end of the advertising business in the north of America', then I suggest you keep it simple for these clients to understand - and just charge them a 'Licence fee for the use of your images' instead.

That way, you don't have to say "no" to them or waste time discussing things that clearly are not important to them (which is obviously why they don't what to pay for it).

Example of the words I use when quoting:-

To produce & provide [number of] images of [whatever the subject is with a brief description] at [wherever the location is].

For exclusive use, for [their name or company name] to use these images for:-
Media use: [list the various media they want to use my images in].
Period of use: [state the number of days, weeks, months or years they want to use my images for] (end date).
Territory of use: [state the region, country or countries they want to use my images in].
(BUR: [my base rate is for standard use]).

Licence fee based on the above: [the amount that they will need to pay, based on the above information].

So if they then wanted to talk over the price I had quoted and reduce it down - I would then talk to them about either reducing the number of images they need to use or talk to them about reducing the Media use or reducing the Period of use or reducing the Territory of use - until we come to an agreement, on what they are actually going to get from me (in their hands, so to speak, at the end of the day) for the price.

In other words, I negotiate the fee based on the 4 main things that are important to them, rather than talking about the things at are important to me. Because at the end of the day, it's the amount they are prepared to pay that will ultimately determine what I can afford to do - and so that's the first thing that needs to be sorted out, before I can really say what it is I'm going to be able to do and/or provide them with, for that amount money.

And to help me calculate what the fee should be, for any additional use over and above my base rate, I use the Association of Photographer's usage calculator here: Usage calculator.

Just a suggestion.[/list]

[BobFisher]

Bob here asked about 'Charging for Travel', so the line items I'm obviously referring to, would be your travel time & travel expenses. Which means the related question to his question would be: What happens if they don't want to pay for either one or other of these two things - but they still would like you to produce & provide them with some images to use - what would the difference be, in terms of what they would actually get from you, at the end of the day ?

If they don't want to pay for the travel time (and to be clear I was asking about travel time, not the actual travel costs) and still want you to produce then as others have pointed out, you see if you can find a way to get them what they need and still be appropriately compensated.  Maybe there's slack somewhere else in the budget, maybe not.

I don't know that I agree that offering them less in terms of usage or cutting down the shooting time is a workable solution though.  You're already getting paid for those things.  Cutting down the length of the shoot or shortening the term of the license or the breadth of use still isn't going to compensate for the time spend getting to and back from the destination.  If they're willing to cut down on those other areas as a way to free up funds to pay for travel time then that may be an option.  But the problem there is that travel time is compensated less than shoot time and cutting back on that or the license use, which would presumably also cut the license fee, are likely going to cost more than will be gained by getting compensated for travel time. 

I agree there may be ways to cut actual travel-related costs.  Fly coach, fly at odd hours where flights may be less expensive.  Take a train if it's less expensive.  But that lengthens actual travel time so the tradeoff may not work.  Stay in a less expensive hotel.  Eat at less expensive restaurants.  Many ways to reduce actual travel costs.  Not a lot to be done though, unless it's fudged into other areas, to make for an unwillingness to pay for that time while travelling.

At the end of it all, it appears that my approach isn't out of line with the norm.  It's a matter of the client(s) being willing to pay or not.  That's a separate issue from whether the fundamental approach to the situation is within or outside of the norm.

[David Eichler]

Regarding simply quoting a lump-sum, per-photo rate, how would you address circumstances beyond your control that require you to spend more time on a project that anticipated, such as weather and travel delays? It would seem to me that you have to put a value on your time for such circumstances. I will account for these things in one way or another, or, for that matter, for anything else that requires me to spend more time on shooting than I feel I need to get the job done, such as a client wanting to spend more time on the shooting than I feel I need.

[David Eichler]

To answer you question with a question David: Do your clients regularly pay you for weather delays and/or travel delays ?

Over the years I have found most people are happy to pay for results, but very very few are prepared to pay for excuses or for things that are also out of their control too.

So even though there is a clause in my T&C about such things, I've never once in 30 years asked a client to pay me for such a thing. Maybe if the sort of work I did was very different, then it would be a major concern - but based on the type of work I do, it's not really an issue for me or something that I would be flagging up when quoting for an assignment.

But having said that, I would usually take such things into account - thinking it all through beforehand and leaving myself plenty of time just incase - before I'd present them with a quote, for me to produce & then provide them with such images for them to use.

So I'd allow for such things and take them into account - but I wouldn't present it as such, because I believe most clients just wouldn't want to know about it... similar to my travelling time or post-production time, etc, etc.

It is not excuses, Ashley. It is things completely beyond your control. In my view, that is the risk the client assumes, not the photographer, unless the photographer is being paid a substantial premium for accepting the risk. It is not only loss of time; it is loss of money for travel and lodging, equipment rental, and possibly lost opportunities for other business. Now, maybe you don't have to cover these things as line item expenses, but you have to cover them somehow.

[Yelhsa]

It is not excuses, Ashley. It is things completely beyond your control. In my view, that is the risk the client assumes, not the photographer, unless the photographer is being paid a substantial premium for accepting the risk. It is not only loss of time; it is loss of money for travel and lodging, equipment rental, and possibly lost opportunities for other business. Now, maybe you don't have to cover these things as line item expenses, but you have to cover them somehow.

If you are self-employed David, then maybe you should to talk to your insurance broker about this, before assuming that it's something your client will be happy to pay you for.

But as I said above: "I would usually take such things into account - thinking it all through beforehand and leaving myself plenty of time just incase - before I'd present them with a quote, for me to produce & then provide them with such images for them to use."

For example, on a recent job I put 5 days aside to produce 20 images for the client to use as agreed, but we completed the assignment in 4 days.
Now, should I have reduced my fee by 20% as a result of this, even though what the client got from me at the end of the day was still the same ?

On another recent job I put aside 2 days to produce 5 images for the client to use as agreed, but it ran into 3 days in the end - partly because I wanted to wait for the right light on one of the shots and also partly due to some things not being ready on time at their end. So yes I hit a few un-excepted problems and it ran-over as a result. However, at the end of the day, when the client saw the final results, he wanted to use the images for a lot more than was originally agreed. As a result, the amount he paid for the use of those images was 400% more than was originally quoted for.
Now, should I have said he just needs to pay me 50% more for that extra day's work OR should I have said he just needs to pay me 400% more for the additional use of my images - OR should I have said he needs to pay me for both, even though part of the reason for running over, was due to me wanting to provide him with images he would want to use a lot more ?

There isn't a Rule Book on all of this as far as I'm aware - just some guidelines & suggestions - so what I'm saying here this simply based on my own experiences, David, over the years.

Normally you can't have it both ways - so you may have to decide which is it going to be - and then be very clear about what the deal is when you are quoting - so as to avoid assumptions or misunderstandings down the road.

[markd61]

My experience in the "charging for travel time" dilemma is that my clients often do not have the experience of dealing with the protocols and conventions of ad agencies and their normal manner of business. They decide they need images of their new building halfway across the country and they call me and ask "how much?" When I have given them an itemized estimate of production costs they like to challenge things they see as unreasonable or expensive. I cannot control their world view so I control what I tell them.
In my quote, I tell them (like Ashley) that "this is the fee I will charge for this project". It is a fee that I calculate based on my production costs and licensing and incorporates clauses for excess costs and delays.

My clients are bottom line people. Yes they could (and maybe should) get  a photographer locally but they are comfortable with me and are confident in my ability to get the images they want. If the price is in their ballpark we go forward.

I have noticed that the sort of clients that Jeffrey works with are not calling me but the well paying clients who DIY their marketing are . I have just adapted to this environment and am staying busy at the rates I want which is my current recipe for contentment.