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Author Topic: Z3100, Lyve Canvas and APS Profiling - Issue  (Read 918 times)
Jim Cole
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« on: January 25, 2013, 07:46:55 AM »
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Hi all,

I've had my Z3100 with APS software since 2007 and have profiled 25-30 papers with outstanding results. I have to produce my first canvas prints for a commercial installation and chose BC Lyve canvas after reading a lot of good reports. However, after creating the new paper preset using HP Professional Matte Canvas, calibrating and producing the profile with APS, the prints are way dark, too red, too magenta and too saturated compared to my excellent calibrated NEC 2690 WUXi monitor. I've checked the normal screw-ups like having printer color management turned on by accident.

I'm having to make changes to the image and then run test prints trying to zero in on the way the print should look. I've never had to do that in six years of using this printer. Prints whether B&W or color, matte or glossy always looked very close to my Photoshop image. I'm wasting a lot of expensive canvas!

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Jim
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Jim Cole
Whitestown, IN
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 09:19:08 AM »
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I wasn't gonna try and say anything because I don't know-
saying that;
I have a non-aps z3100, have asked numerous persons, and have come away from those conversations believing the best profile is built after making sure all variables are taken care of-
profiling the screen is #1
#2 is make sure the printer's operation is consistent and in spec-
I believe cleaning the machine is fundamental to its proper operation, make sure the profiling function isn't hampered by dirty lenses etc.
Then make sure the heads are aligned and the paper feed is correctly functioning.
Then I profile the paper using fine art <250gsm setting-
works well it seems-
You will find the profiling of canvas is a lot tougher than photo papers etc.
I have started from the beginning several times as the $$ mounts up in wasted profiles.
I have many to compare and have consistency issues so really, for me your experience is similar.
Not so easy but satisfying when you get it right.
I like lyve compared to EECM, others have said sunset select glossy is good
you are using top of the line canvas so the issue is resolvable-
I vote for incorrect profiling and color management
I'm not sure how to correct it but somewhere to start is make sure colorcenter reports correct head and paper advance alignment
then try the profiling @ <250gsm fine art setting
Then print proofs before the real thing or it is a waste.
I often make <72" prints and have saved much waste by downsizing to a small size that fits the 24" width and print that before firing off the 6 footer
so yeah it isn't perfect but you'll only waste a comparatively small portion if it is incorrect.
I hope someone that knows more might say


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Justan
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 09:39:20 AM »
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According to a guide I have that was provided by Hahnemuhle for use with HP Z3100 series, the basic config for canvas is ďfine art paper >250gĒ

I used this for LexJet and Hahnemuhle canvas and itís worked great.

Havenít used Lyve so canít answer directly to that.
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 09:45:53 AM »
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oops Shocked meant
>250gsm
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2013, 09:51:24 AM »
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Rocco,

I appreciate your contribution. I'll try to address your excellent suggestions.

My NEC screen was just profiled yesterday using  NEC's excellent SpectraView II. The screen, I don't think, is a problem. The print I'm trying to make, Ive printed may times before from 10x30 to 20x60 on normal high quality photo papers and the image looks the same on the screen that it always has. No, the issue is with the actual profiling of this canvas, I think.

All print heads have been aligned as of last week and paper is feeding fine. No obvious printing issues with prints done a couple of weeks ago.

I can try profiling with the Fine Art >250gsm setting. I used the Pro Canvas Matte setting as I had read of several successes here using that one. I'll reserve that in case I need to start over.

If this is a common occurrence with canvas profiling, I wish I would have known. What is it about the canvas that makes it so hard to profile?

I used the largest target available for profiling (i think it's almost 1000 patches) and all the patches look good. The spectrograph itself could be dirty causing the problem. I  will have to research and learn how to clean it.

I'm printing a 15x20" crop of 32x96" prints on a 17" roll, so I'm wasting as little as possible while having enough of the image to check shadows, highlights, saturation and various primary color based areas. I'm with you on that one!

The cropped prints are coming out exactly to size meaning there are no paper advance problems.

Thanks again and I appreciate you taking the time to respond,

Jim
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2013, 09:54:37 AM »
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According to a guide I have that was provided by Hahnemuhle for use with HP Z3100 series, the basic config for canvas is ďfine art paper >250gĒ

I used this for LexJet and Hahnemuhle canvas and itís worked great.

Havenít used Lyve so canít answer directly to that.


Justan,

I may have to try that, although HP themselves suggest the Matte Canvas setting. Others have used the Fine Art setting with success, so I'll consider starting over. I would need to buy another roll of 17" canvas for $100, though. I shouldn't be this hard, not after all the years I've been doing this.

Thanks!
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Jim Cole
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PeterAit
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2013, 11:34:04 AM »
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Have you tried using the "canned" Lyve profile from Breathing Color? If that works, your homemade profile is to blame. If it has the same problems, the error is elsewhere.
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Peter
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2013, 11:45:07 AM »
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Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, BC doesn't make profiles for any HP printers, so that is not an option. Otherwise, I would give it a shot.

Jim
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Jim Cole
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aaronchan
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2013, 12:05:24 PM »
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Do you have an i1pro?
My beg is your i1 on your Z3100 is not reading the patch correct since the canvas might have a lot of texture on it (I've never use BC Lyve)
But if you do have one, what I would do it i will make 2 sets of chart and they will one printed in landscape mode, and the other would be in portrait mode.
Read both of them, average the numbers then process the icc generation procedure.
this is how i deal with heavy texture material.

aaron
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 12:35:57 PM »
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Aaron,

Unfortunately, I don't have a i1Pro. Otherwise it's an excellent suggestion. I think I'm going to look at the lens on the spectrograph and clean it. Then I can re-read the patches and generate another profile.

Thanks for your help,
Jim
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Jim Cole
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 01:38:13 PM »
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I successfully cleaned my computer screen a few times- no marks, no residue, no nothing.
If you could do that to your z3100  lens it'd be fine I'm sure,
I don't think these things were meant to be handled too much, so it surprises me when I successfully make something happen the way I want it to.
I believe you may be referring to the ESP as the part you might be wondering about.
Several other parts to clean first-
distilled water,  make up sponges, white coffee filters(helps keep track of the clean parts)
I have gone as far as getting in there with a vacuum and FINE tip (home made) to clean dust-
a dust cover always-again a home made one from discarded and torn suit cover in the closet
the biggest thing is to make it work like it's supposed to,
then rule out errors you might make 1 by 1
I have ruined a lot of canvas, but have got so that even new canvas is easier now because of how I know I like it to look.
Well good luck,
from what I understand there are ways to stop the profiling mid profile,
that would be cool if you could coat the canvas before you let it read the patches,
I guess a color munki does this type of thing as well-(or one of the profiling hardware makers)
too complex for a guy like me
as long as I get what I want I'm happy
lyve and z3100 has delivered quite a bit on this account for me
you have to just slow down a figure out what is going on
you'll see canvas is way more satisfying that even fancy baryta or photorag
you'll get it
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 01:54:35 PM »
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Well, I believe I've figured out the problem. I wiped down the capping station and then performed the ESP diagnostic twice. The sensor failed both times.

So now, for those of you who have performed surgery on your Z3100s, do I attempt to disassemble and clean the sensor first, or is the lens of the ESP so well buried in the carriage assembly, that if it fails, it is not due to ink or other crud, but due to a sensor breaking down?

I've started looking for a new sensor and they're available (looks like around $365 or so). Are there any recommendations for a parts house if I need to get this ordered?

Thanks everyone!

Actually I just forund the ESP for $317 at DecTrader.com. Anyone done business here?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 01:57:37 PM by Jim Cole » Logged

Jim Cole
Whitestown, IN
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2013, 02:08:34 PM »
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Well, I believe I've figured out the problem. I wiped down the capping station and then performed the ESP diagnostic twice. The sensor failed both times.

So now, for those of you who have performed surgery on your Z3100s, do I attempt to disassemble and clean the sensor first, or is the lens of the ESP so well buried in the carriage assembly, that if it fails, it is not due to ink or other crud, but due to a sensor breaking down?

I've started looking for a new sensor and they're available (looks like around $365 or so). Are there any recommendations for a parts house if I need to get this ordered?

Thanks everyone!

Actually I just forund the ESP for $317 at DecTrader.com. Anyone done business here?
that would be a cool video like kaelerias belt replacement
dectrader is OK the prices are always in flux
depends how scarce the supply is, you can always look to everprint to be the highest price
my experience only
also,
if you can build a computer you can read follow and understand the manual
yeah its a b!tch to take the z down to the carriage assembly, but possible-
wear latex gloves and make sure no static charge is present during these detailed and highly precise operations to dis or reassemble the unit.
I'd clean my esp first, so many things else might turn up as a by product of the untrained doing such complicated things, I'd make sure it is the esp first-
you have to have it apart to replace it anyhow so wth why not?
Might surprise yourself...
maybe just familiarize yourself to the procedure and then either do it then or decide to call the tech
they might just replace the esp, doubtful as the techs seem to replace several things all at once.
This seems to add up real quick.
I just read where someone paid a tech to replace the belt, $800
so....
good luck
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2013, 02:36:59 PM »
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Thanks for the tips, Roscoe. Latex gloves I have.

I really don't want to pay a tech $800-1000 to do this, so I'll have to get my hands dirty. I don't own a video camera so a video is out of the question. Besides, it would just be a lot of bad words, I'm sure. Grin

I want to see if anybody else chimes in or whether or not to try a cleaning of the ESP before I replace it. The bummer is, I'm right in the middle of trying to get these canvases produced and I don't want to jeopardize my delivery. I'd be screwed if I broke something else and missed a deadline.

I may just screw with the mods to the color balance on my prints just to complete the delivery and then when the pressure's off, start the repairs when I can take my time. It will just cost a little canvas and ink.

I might start another thread on just the ESP question if no one else chimes in on this thread.

Jim
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Jim Cole
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2013, 02:57:57 PM »
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also you cant do the esp test on canvas
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2013, 03:05:38 PM »
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Yeah, I know the manual specified glossy paper. I used my Pro Satin.
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2013, 03:53:28 PM »
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After starting another thread specifically about the spectrometer (ESP Sensor) in the Z3100 wherein Ernst suggested that the Z printer diagnostic reports the sensor bad most times when it's not.

I decided to run an APS profile on some HP Instant Dry Photo Satin paper that I really don't use for anything. I think it was a free roll with the printer.

The profiling went smoothly as usual and then I printed the same cropped print (without all the canvas corrections) that I've been trying to get right on the Lyve. The test print came out great, telling me that my spectrometer is fine and operating the way it should, despite what the diagnostic says. Whew!

So, the issue must be with profiling the Lyve canvas with the built in spectrometer. It evidently doesn't like the texture of canvas.

So, for this project, I'll have to futz with test prints (I have one of the two looking good on the canvas) until the print looks like it should.I have to smear some Timeless varnish on the test print to make sure it darkens a bit as expected.

If my reseller decides to sell more canvas (drat!) I'll have to invest in a manual spectrometer. Oh well, I made it twelve years in the business without having to print on canvas. It's not the time to be picky.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

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Jim Cole
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 07:03:59 PM »
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Update

Another poster here was kind enough to send me another profile for the Lyve canvas. It is spot on. I've sent him some questions about how it was done. All I know so far is that he used the Fine Art Paper preset.

For now, no more fiddling required. The client will be happy.

Thanks, Jag.

Jim
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Jim Cole
Whitestown, IN
www.jimcolephoto.com
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