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Author Topic: Hasselblad H3D 30mp V Nikon D800E  (Read 9279 times)
kdphotography
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2013, 09:39:34 PM »
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Here is a direct Nikon vs 40MP Hasselblad


Um, actually I was asking Doug Peterson.  Ahem, that's why you see the "Hey Doug" in my post.  See, I'm actually asking for an answer from someone who has actual experience using a technical camera and MFDBs, and also happens to know a lot about the lenses and the new C 1 Pro7.  I'm not looking for the "google" response or the anecdoctal reply of what you may have heard somewhere...  Myself, I opted for the Rodenstock over Schneider with the IQ180, and so who else better to ask about the Schneider 35XL (using the new C1 Pro 7) and someone who actually knows what they are talking about and actually uses MFDBS---than our resident expert, Doug (and yes, thank you Lance!).

Nice photo.  I've only seen that one posted by you maybe ten or twelve times now.  I have no idea why you posted it in reply to my post.  Rather than keep posting someone else's work, do you have any images that you have taken yourself with the Nikon D800?  That certainly would be a more helpful contribution than the constant ad nauseum anti Phase/MFDB rants....  How about some puppies?  Anything....    Roll Eyes

I think I liked it better when all the forum threads were about how Fuji saved the world and waxing poetic about what a better place it was with the Fuji GX680.... Wink    At least you have experience with the GX680.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 09:25:07 AM by kdphotography » Logged

FredBGG
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2013, 11:28:13 PM »
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Fred, that's excellently scary

The D800E is quite a camera. It's almost silly how much quality a small 3,000 dollar camera can put out. Same goes for the New little Fuji cameras.

Richard

I took a look at your work.
The Chinatown USA project and the Occupy series are really nice. Very nice processing too.

Faces of the smart world is a brilliant.

I also read about your other projects. IF you need an loaner MF film camera or 8x10 in Los Angeles let me know.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:36:29 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2013, 11:42:16 PM »
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Um, actually I was asking Doug Peterson.  Ahem, that's why you see the "Hey Doug" in my post.  See, I'm actually asking for an answer from someone who has actual experience using a technical camera and MFDBs, and also happens to know a lot about the lenses and the new C 1 Pro7.  I'm not looking for the "google" response or the anecdoctal reply of what you may have heard somewhere...  I opted for the Rodenstock over Schneider with the IQ180, and who else better to ask about the 35XL (using the new C1 Pro 7) and someone who actually knows what they are talking about and actually uses MFDBS---than our resident expert, Doug (and yes, thank you Lance!).

Nice photo.  I've only seen that one posted by you maybe ten or twelve times now.  I have no idea why you posted it in reply to my post.  Rather than keep posting someone else's work, do you have any images that you have taken yourself with the Nikon D800?  That certainly would be a more helpful contribution than the constant ad nauseum anti Phase/MFDB rants....  How about some puppies?  Anything....    Roll Eyes

I think I liked it better when all the forum threads were about how Fuji saved the world and waxing poetic about what a better place it was with the Fuji GX680.... Wink    At least you have experience with the GX680.

Aah... How silly... I fell for the bait. If you know I've linked to that image before you know that there is a direct Hasselblad D800 comparison.... there  are a few others too.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:47:59 PM by FredBGG » Logged
jerome_m
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2013, 01:34:25 AM »
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Have you checked any price list?

It's about a camera, an MFDB and several lenses. I don't really think you can buy a decent MFDB below 5000$, than you need the body, say 3000$ and a few lenses at 3000$ each. Some of that stuff would be used.

Zeiss lenses are not that expensive, and some of the Nikon lenses are really excellent, too.

The O.P. asked about a "H3D 30mp", it is even in the title. It is a 7 years old camera, which can only be bought second hand. I came to this particular forum because I bought one last week to complement or replace my D800. I also bought a 80mm and 150mm lenses with it. When I see the price of a D800E (almost impossible to find second hand) and 2 equivalent used Zeiss lenses in Nikon mount, the total is more than what I paid for my H3D-31 with lenses, even factoring the cost of sending it back to Göteborg for cleaning.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2013, 02:00:43 AM »
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Hi,

OK. Sorry for asking.

I was checking out prices recently and came up with a higher figure, but I was looking a Phase back to put on a Hartblei HCam. I also mostly checked H-lenses.

Zeiss 50/1.4 ZF.2 costs about 725$ at B&H photovideo. You get a used HC 80 for that price? New they cost 2595 at B&H.

Zeiss 85/14 ZF.2 costs 1283 at B&H, while the HC 150/3.2 costs 3795$ new at B&H.

I realize the D31 back is cropped sensor so the corresponding focal lengths should be a bit different. Anyway, you got your camera at a very good price, enjoy!

Best regards
Erik



The O.P. asked about a "H3D 30mp", it is even in the title. It is a 7 years old camera, which can only be bought second hand. I came to this particular forum because I bought one last week to complement or replace my D800. I also bought a 80mm and 150mm lenses with it. When I see the price of a D800E (almost impossible to find second hand) and 2 equivalent used Zeiss lenses in Nikon mount, the total is more than what I paid for my H3D-31 with lenses, even factoring the cost of sending it back to Göteborg for cleaning.
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jerome_m
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2013, 02:30:51 AM »
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Zeiss 50/1.4 ZF.2 costs about 725$ at B&H photovideo. You get a used HC 80 for that price? New they cost 2595 at B&H.

Zeiss 85/14 ZF.2 costs 1283 at B&H, while the HC 150/3.2 costs 3795$ new at B&H.

A quick look on completed listing in the US on ebay shows that the going rates for the Hasselblad lenses is 900$ and 1500$ respectively and the price for the Zeiss lenses is about 550$ and 1100$, so there is indeed a difference, but not a huge one. The difference is even smaller in Germany, where I live.

Used Hasselblad digital cameras seem to be particularly cheap at present, probably due to a combination of:
-the D800 coming to market
-reduced prices on low-end Hasselblad cameras to bring them in line with the Pentax 645
-offers on the H4D cameras now that the H5D is announced
-recession.

In consequence, the prices of a used H3D system with a 22 or 31 mpix back and 2 or 3 lenses is, at present, comparable to the price of a D800E with 2 or 3 Zeiss lenses and I expect that more people will ask questions about the comparison in one direction or the other: there are some pro photographers with old Hasselblads who wonder whether they should replace them with the lighter and cheaper cameras if they are good enough for their line of business as well as amateurs tempted to try a different way of taking photographs.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2013, 03:35:28 AM »
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Thanks for good info!

Erik

A quick look on completed listing in the US on ebay shows that the going rates for the Hasselblad lenses is 900$ and 1500$ respectively and the price for the Zeiss lenses is about 550$ and 1100$, so there is indeed a difference, but not a huge one. The difference is even smaller in Germany, where I live.

Used Hasselblad digital cameras seem to be particularly cheap at present, probably due to a combination of:
-the D800 coming to market
-reduced prices on low-end Hasselblad cameras to bring them in line with the Pentax 645
-offers on the H4D cameras now that the H5D is announced
-recession.

In consequence, the prices of a used H3D system with a 22 or 31 mpix back and 2 or 3 lenses is, at present, comparable to the price of a D800E with 2 or 3 Zeiss lenses and I expect that more people will ask questions about the comparison in one direction or the other: there are some pro photographers with old Hasselblads who wonder whether they should replace them with the lighter and cheaper cameras if they are good enough for their line of business as well as amateurs tempted to try a different way of taking photographs.
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Mike Sellers
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2013, 08:13:01 AM »
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Jerome,
You sure found a good deal on the Hasselblad outfit. Was it on ebay? I would be interested in your impressions of how it compares to the Nikon going forward.
Mike
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ndevlin
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2013, 08:17:44 AM »
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Which one would produce better 40x60 prints?

The one in the hands of the better photographer.  Sorry, but that's as good an answer as you get on that question.

Cheers,

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2013, 08:32:31 AM »
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Hi,

A good answer. I know you have experience of both!

On the other hand I used to say it depends on what is in front (subject, lens), under (tripod) and behind (photographer) the camera.

If you don't use tripod and MLU there is little reason to discuss the issue.

Best regards
Erik

The one in the hands of the better photographer.  Sorry, but that's as good an answer as you get on that question.

Cheers,

- N.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 08:59:03 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Gel
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2013, 08:33:40 AM »
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Again it's all down to what fits you.

I do weddings, headshots and for myself, landscapes.
My H4D is a purely indulgent purchase for times on holiday when it's just me, the camera and a beautiful vista.

The side benefit to this is it's also used for headshots / portraiture and on a sunny day, some wedding stuff.
Other than that it's the 1DX to fill in the chasm left by the H4D.

Or the H4D used to fill the weaknesses of the 1DX of which there aren't many but if you want ultimate image quality it's the Hassy.
But, comparing an older back to a newer camera is something else. The 5D3 for example puts out an image directly comparable to the P25 back (I tested it).

When you get to the point both cameras are equal in IQ you have to base your decision on other things like sensor blooming, ISO performance, general usability and so on.
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David Watson
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2013, 08:55:46 AM »
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The one in the hands of the better photographer.  Sorry, but that's as good an answer as you get on that question.

Cheers,

- N.

+1
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David Watson ARPS
abiggs
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2013, 09:10:48 AM »
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The one in the hands of the better photographer.  Sorry, but that's as good an answer as you get on that question.

Cheers,

- N.

+2
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Andy Biggs
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Africa Photo Safaris | Workshops | Fine Art Prints
kdphotography
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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2013, 09:23:26 AM »
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The one in the hands of the better photographer.  Sorry, but that's as good an answer as you get on that question.

Cheers,

- N.

+3 (and add someone who knows how to print!)
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Mike Sellers
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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2013, 11:53:18 AM »
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The Factum looks neat but I would have go back to my view camera days to drag out my one degree spot meter! That seems a little retro to me but I suppose not a problem to an architectural photographer. Not saying I wouldn`t like to have one for my landscape work,though.
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jerome_m
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2013, 11:55:55 AM »
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Jerome,
You sure found a good deal on the Hasselblad outfit. Was it on ebay? I would be interested in your impressions of how it compares to the Nikon going forward.
Mike

Yes, I bought that H3D-31 on ebay. Nobody else bet, so it went for a really good price, but I don't feel I can give you a really meaningful answer yet: I have only had the camera for a few days, so I have not really tried it yet. Furthermore, the camera is fine but the back IR window has spots of mould. I could clean the outer side (I posted how I did it in another post), but I can't clean the inside without dismounting the glued window, so I will end up sending back to Hasselblad in Göteborg to have the window exchanged. According to their web site, this is a fixed price of €326,- plus tax, which is reasonable. But it means I will not be able to use the back for at least a month. On top of it, I need the back cover to send it without the camera. The cover is ordered, but delivery should take about 10 days… So I'll have to be patient. In the mean time, I can use the back up to f/5.6-f/8 without the spots being too visible. I may also use the camera with film: the H3D is the last digital model which accepts the film backs.

What I can say, however, is that a comparison of the cameras on output only makes little sense. The cameras are very, very different in their use and I will certainly not make the same pictures when I use one or the other. For landscape photography, which is what you seem to be interested about, I would say that the D800 is more adapted if you want to produce the typical over-saturated, wide-angle panoramas which are fashionable at present, while the Hasselblad may be more adapted to a documentary in the style of the New Topographics or to details with little depth of field. The Hasselblad is big and heavy, especially when taking the lenses into account and I would not take it to a mountain.

As to the D800, since I have a bit more experience with that camera, I do not like the rendering of many Nikon lenses or the skin colors the camera produces (which is my motivation to get something else), but the autofocus is miles ahead of the competition (not useful for landscape) and some lenses like the famous 14-24 have no equivalent anywhere else. And of course the D800 can be used with Zeiss lenses, which have a rendering completely different to the Nikons and which I learned to appreciate on my Sony A900.

The real question you should ask yourself is, maybe, what kind of landscape pictures you want to make. What kind of aesthetics are you looking for? How should your pictures look like? What colours? What rendering of sharp or out of focus zones? What landscape will you photograph (in terms of light, colours but also accessibility)? When you know what you want to get, the type of camera should be evident.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2013, 02:54:34 PM »
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Hi,

I made a couple of comparisons between Zeiss lenses forSony and non Zeiss and could see little difference. I have also tested a Sonnar 150/4 on Sony, compared Minolta 80-200/2.8 APO and Sony 70-500/4-5.6G. I have not seen a lot of difference.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/72-zeissness?showall=1

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/73-sonnar-150-cb-on-dslr-using-arax-tilt-adapter

Best regards
Erik



Yes, I bought that H3D-31 on ebay. Nobody else bet, so it went for a really good price, but I don't feel I can give you a really meaningful answer yet: I have only had the camera for a few days, so I have not really tried it yet. Furthermore, the camera is fine but the back IR window has spots of mould. I could clean the outer side (I posted how I did it in another post), but I can't clean the inside without dismounting the glued window, so I will end up sending back to Hasselblad in Göteborg to have the window exchanged. According to their web site, this is a fixed price of €326,- plus tax, which is reasonable. But it means I will not be able to use the back for at least a month. On top of it, I need the back cover to send it without the camera. The cover is ordered, but delivery should take about 10 days… So I'll have to be patient. In the mean time, I can use the back up to f/5.6-f/8 without the spots being too visible. I may also use the camera with film: the H3D is the last digital model which accepts the film backs.

What I can say, however, is that a comparison of the cameras on output only makes little sense. The cameras are very, very different in their use and I will certainly not make the same pictures when I use one or the other. For landscape photography, which is what you seem to be interested about, I would say that the D800 is more adapted if you want to produce the typical over-saturated, wide-angle panoramas which are fashionable at present, while the Hasselblad may be more adapted to a documentary in the style of the New Topographics or to details with little depth of field. The Hasselblad is big and heavy, especially when taking the lenses into account and I would not take it to a mountain.

As to the D800, since I have a bit more experience with that camera, I do not like the rendering of many Nikon lenses or the skin colors the camera produces (which is my motivation to get something else), but the autofocus is miles ahead of the competition (not useful for landscape) and some lenses like the famous 14-24 have no equivalent anywhere else. And of course the D800 can be used with Zeiss lenses, which have a rendering completely different to the Nikons and which I learned to appreciate on my Sony A900.

The real question you should ask yourself is, maybe, what kind of landscape pictures you want to make. What kind of aesthetics are you looking for? How should your pictures look like? What colours? What rendering of sharp or out of focus zones? What landscape will you photograph (in terms of light, colours but also accessibility)? When you know what you want to get, the type of camera should be evident.

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FredBGG
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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2013, 03:14:29 PM »
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Yes, I bought that H3D-31 on ebay. Nobody else bet, so it went for a really good price, but I don't feel I can give you a really meaningful answer yet: I have only had the camera for a few days, so I have not really tried it yet. Furthermore, the camera is fine but the back IR window has spots of mould. I could clean the outer side (I posted how I did it in another post), but I can't clean the inside without dismounting the glued window, so I will end up sending back to Hasselblad in Göteborg to have the window exchanged.

If you have mold spots on the sensor glass both inside and out it is highly likely that there are problems in other areas of the camera.
The lens may have problems too. Before mold becomes visible to the naked eye or with a loup it can create haze that is quite hard to see.
However this haze will reduce shapness and contrast especially in situations with quite high contrast.

A quick check can be done by looking at a small light source against a dark background.
Take the lens off the camera and look at the small light source through the lens.
No haze, halo or significant dust should be seen. Even a very very slight halo in this viewing mode
is an indication of a bad problem.
I bought an 8x10 lens once that looked spanking clean until viewed as I described above.
I dismantled it and cleaned each element with DMSO and distilled water. After that it was perfect.
However an 8x10 lens is easy to dismantle.



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FredBGG
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2013, 03:29:53 PM »
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The one in the hands of the better photographer.  Sorry, but that's as good an answer as you get on that question.

Cheers,

- N.

While the photographer is obviously a determining factor there are quite a few IQ characteristics you simply cannot miraculously
alter.

In landscape photography dynamic range is very significant.



Here the D800 shows 2.5 stops better dynamic range than the Hasselblad at 100 ISO (effective ISO 100)

You can't change the lighting at the best moment in the day for a mountain. Dynamic range is your friend.

High dynamic range means you can fit more of the subjects range into your capture.

This gives you great highlight recovery, especially if your shadows are so good that you can expose with an overall darker exposure.

Here is an example of d800 recovery.

Right side is recovered from the left side.

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FredBGG
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2013, 03:48:27 PM »
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Regarding skin tones both Hasselblad and the D800E produce excellent skin tones.

The common mistake that people make is to judge the skin tones on post processing choices made by the default
raw conversions.

Erik Kaffehr very clearly demonstrated that for us by using color calibration made correctly for both cameras.
The skin tones are indistinguishable.



Both camera can achieve the same skin tone results and each can be styled to the photographer preference.

The real truth of the matter is that good skin tones in a photo go like this.

50% Casting the right subject
25% Having a makeup artist that doesn't smother the natural skin with bad makeup
24% Color calibration of already very good gear and correct post
1% or less the difference between a D800 and an MF sensor.

I think that it's far more realistic to say that the day in the menstrual cycle of the model will have a bigger effect on
skin tones than the difference between a d800, d600 or an MF sensor. Hell even how hot or cold the model is.
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