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Author Topic: Hasselblad H3D 30mp V Nikon D800E  (Read 13418 times)
Willow Photography
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« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2013, 09:58:22 AM »
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+1

Thats what I wonder too.
All this people, not shooting MFDB, not having MFDB, not interested in MFDB,
and still they post over and over again about MFDB and what a waste of money and time
it is shooting with it.

Why not just stick to the DSLR threads and share some experiences there.
Why all this effort to prove that DSLR are equal or better than MFDB??

I my self have had lots of MFDB, from Light Phase to IQ140 and some HXDs and Leafs.
Love retouching the files, but also frustrated how much more difficult it is to
shoot with than DSLR. Especially the bad LCD on the back.

When I bought the D800E, I thought I had got a DSLR that could make me forget
about MFDB.

Not so.

It is a terrific camera and the shadowtweakability :-) is unmatched by any camera, MFDB or DSLR.
Highlight not so much ( still good but... )

Sharpness is almost as good as any MFDB.

BUT.. I want something that I love shooting with ( D800E has no personality ).
And everybody shoots with it.

I always loved Contax 645 and when I stumbled over a package with 6 lenses and
everything in mint condition for a very low price, I bought it and one more house.
Then I bought a P65+ with less than 1000 shots on it for halve the price.

I did not need it for my professional assignments and and the LCD on P65+ sucks.
I doesnt matter.
I will use the LCD for the histogram and make sure I exposure to the right,
because the shadows get very noisy fast if you underexpose a MFDB.

I made this move for the Contax lenses and the share joy of working with
equipment that gives me some excitement and inspiration.

I will keep my Nikon D800E, but I am more happy and excited using my Contax.

And Fred, I also have a Fuji GX680 I will put the P65 on :-).

I really hope all these threads about comparing D800E to MFDB would end,
or just had their own forum :-).

It is just noise and destroy somewhat the MFDB forum.

If you do not like MFDB, stop hijacking this forum and let us, that
still enjoy our MFDBs, share information and experiences without all
this noise.

If you think D800E is the ultimate camera - fine.
You do not have to degrade other equipment to make your point.
Enjoy your D800E, make good pictures and be happy.

IMO
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Willow Photography
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2013, 10:07:06 AM »
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Hi,

The original poster asked about image quality in large (60x40) prints and not about the camera having personality or not. This is not a question about D800E being greatest camera ever but giving the poster information the best information so he can spend his hard earned money wisely.

Best regards
Erik

+1

Thats what I wonder too.
All this people, not shooting MFDB, not having MFDB, not interested in MFDB,
and still they post over and over again about MFDB and what a waste of money and time
it is shooting with it.

Why not just stick to the DSLR threads and share some experiences there.
Why all this effort to prove that DSLR are equal or better than MFDB??

I my self have had lots of MFDB, from Light Phase to IQ140 and some HXDs and Leafs.
Love retouching the files, but also frustrated how much more difficult it is to
shoot with than DSLR. Especially the bad LCD on the back.

When I bought the D800E, I thought I had got a DSLR that could make me forget
about MFDB.

Not so.

It is a terrific camera and the shadowtweakability :-) is unmatched by any camera, MFDB or DSLR.
Highlight not so much ( still good but... )

Sharpness is almost as good as any MFDB.

BUT.. I want something that I love shooting with ( D800E has no personality ).
And everybody shoots with it.

I always loved Contax 645 and when I stumbled over a package with 6 lenses and
everything in mint condition for a very low price, I bought it and one more house.
Then I bought a P65+ with less than 1000 shots on it for halve the price.

I did not need it for my professional assignments and and the LCD on P65+ sucks.
I doesnt matter.
I will use the LCD for the histogram and make sure I exposure to the right,
because the shadows get very noisy fast if you underexpose a MFDB.

I made this move for the Contax lenses and the share joy of working with
equipment that gives me some excitement and inspiration.

I will keep my Nikon D800E, but I am more happy and excited using my Contax.

And Fred, I also have a Fuji GX680 I will put the P65 on :-).

I really hope all these threads about comparing D800E to MFDB would end,
or just had their own forum :-).

It is just noise and destroy somewhat the MFDB forum.

If you do not like MFDB, stop hijacking this forum and let us, that
still enjoy our MFDBs, share information and experiences without all
this noise.

If you think D800E is the ultimate camera - fine.
You do not have to degrade other equipment to make your point.
Enjoy your D800E, make good pictures and be happy.

IMO

« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 11:10:31 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Willow Photography
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« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2013, 11:20:05 AM »
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WOW. Talk about missing the point.

I know I probably should have started a new tread with my post and I know I did not give the OP any answers to his questions.

But it was just some thoughts about all this noise about comparing cameras in MFDB treads.

The trend is that it is more post about comparing cameras and science about these and that
instead of talking about photography and showing great pictures.

Its not only the MFDB haters thats hijacking the MFDB treads, but also the scientists and mathematicians
are posting more than the creative people.

IMO, that is a big step back from how it was some years ago.
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Willow Photography
kdphotography
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« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2013, 11:29:49 AM »
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WOW. Talk about missing the point.

I know I probably should have started a new tread with my post and I know I did not give the OP any answers to his questions.

But it was just some thoughts about all this noise about comparing cameras in MFDB treads.

The trend is that it is more post about comparing cameras and science about these and that
instead of talking about photography and showing great pictures.

Its not only the MFDB haters thats hijacking the MFDB treads, but also the scientists and mathematicians
are posting more than the creative people.

IMO, that is a big step back from how it was some years ago.


+1.
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uaiomex
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« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2013, 12:10:50 PM »
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+1.

Please add me. Willow (post 190) is just fine. I've seen some posts here and there, requesting info for this dslr or that dmfc that have more the scent of just being provocative than anything else. I won't say, so please don't ask me.
I decided for the time being not to make the jump to DMF for various reasons. My professional work is not much these days. My portrait work is about zero. I'm mostly into the real estate business for now. Photography still is my main passion and hobby. Everything I do, I do just fine (an understatement) with my EOS system. I lurk here almost everyday and once in a while I post. I enjoy reading both parts of this feud because is very informative and why not, entertaining. Ok, sometimes it is irritating.
Since dslrs gain grounds every year, it helps me feel better about not having a DMF rig which I truly believe, its the pinnacle of image quality and rapport. It's limitations and shortcomings as well as the ridiculous prices are another thing. For sheer image quality this is it. Accept it.
If we deny the advantages (IQ wise) of a bigger MF sensor over a 35mm sensor, then we can all the deny the advantages of the 35mm sensor over the APS sensor. We can also deny the advantages of APS over M43 and so on.
Things to do:
Let's all get a Canon or Nikon point&shoot, sell all other rigs and be happy forever.
or
Try a little more love to thy neighbor.

Eduardo
 
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JV
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« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2013, 12:16:07 PM »
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WOW. Talk about missing the point.

Perhaps because there was no MTF chart in your reply...? Smiley

I know I probably should have started a new tread with my post and I know I did not give the OP any answers to his questions.

But it was just some thoughts about all this noise about comparing cameras in MFDB treads.

The trend is that it is more post about comparing cameras and science about these and that
instead of talking about photography and showing great pictures.

Its not only the MFDB haters thats hijacking the MFDB treads, but also the scientists and mathematicians
are posting more than the creative people.

IMO, that is a big step back from how it was some years ago.


+1.  In my opinion the gear forum (or perhaps a new dedicated forum) would be more appropriate.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 12:25:12 PM by JV » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2013, 02:00:38 PM »
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The lenses were bought from another person. The mould on the sensor IR glass probably come from inappropriate cleaning techniques.

Good that the lenses come from another person.
Mold on the back is more likely to come from humidity condensation and mold where it was stored.
The problem you need to have Hasselblad look at is if there isn't mold elsewhere in the back. Specs under the glass could be an indication of that.
Mold has a nasty habit of growing back if it is not totally eliminated.
If the body came from the same person as the back I would have it cleaned and "steralized". IF there is some mold in the body the auxiliary
shutter and mirror flapping around could spread the mold again. Mold spores can stay dormant for a very long time.

That said Hasselebald from my experience has excellent repair service and quite reasonable.
I have had complicated repairs and lens cleanings done on out of production
lenses and the turnaround time was just a few days (excluding shipping) even when requiring a new iris.

Their service is so reasonable that when ever I sold a Hasselblad lens I would send it in for a cleaning and iris replacement.
I could then sell it with the Hasselblad service warranty of 6 months. I would get back the money spent
for the service and have a happy client. 100% favorable ebay feedback feels good.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:41:14 PM by FredBGG » Logged
jerome_m
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« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2013, 02:40:51 PM »
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Mold on the back is more likely to come from humidity condensation and mold where it was stored.
The problem you need to have Hasselblad look at is if there isn't mold elsewhere in the back. Specs under the glass could be an indication of that.
Mold has a nasty habit of growing back if it is not totally eliminated.
If the body came from the same person as the back I would have it cleaned and "steralized". IF there is some mold in the body the auxiliary
shutter and mirror flapping around could spread the mold again.

Are you a mycologist?
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jerome_m
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« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2013, 02:43:40 PM »
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Its not only the MFDB haters thats hijacking the MFDB treads, but also the scientists and mathematicians are posting more than the creative people.

Scientists and mathematicians are creative people. I mean: real scientists and real mathematicians.

(I'll edit this post to explain a bit more, recent comments have made me realise that it was a bit too short to be understood. I don't believe in the idea that being gifted in science would be a different thing than having creative abilities. I had the pleasure to meet some renowned scientists and they stroke me as extremely creative people. It takes imagination to invent and visualise a new theory where the less gifted only see random data.
Still I understand what the comment meant: the technical discussion of cameras are of little interest and take too much importance lately.)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 03:44:48 PM by jerome_m » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2013, 02:45:29 PM »
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WOW. Talk about missing the point.

I know I probably should have started a new tread with my post and I know I did not give the OP any answers to his questions.

But it was just some thoughts about all this noise about comparing cameras in MFDB treads.

Sounds sort of legitimate in this thread since comparing the image quality is the very point, is it not?

On your point, we all have our most fun gear to shoot with, it would be an Ebony 4x5 camera as far as I am concerned. Now, when I need to produce images, I have reached the painful conclusion that the only upside my Ebony has resultwise (meaning in the images produced) compared to a [D800 with the right lens + stitching] for my landscaper needs is... movements... For the rest it is behind in every compartment (again, in terms of images produced), including looks, creativity of produced images, image quality, dynamic,...

But now... photography is only part of my life, I can afford not to have as much fun with it as I could when I shoot. I guess you see things differently when shooting is all you do.

This debate was had a thousand times, but the take away still seems biased. Everybody agrees with you really, I am indeed not aware of any DSLR shooter unaware that MF has tens of reasonably arguable objectives values (fun to shoot with being potentially one of those) compared to a D800. Doug had come up with a very good itemized list highlighting these a couple of months ago.

The only aspect some argue about is the supposed clear superiority in terms of image quality of equipment costing 5 times too much. Interestingly, this is the very point the OP wanted to discuss.

But then, we are all fishing for something, aren't we?



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:49:11 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

A few images online here!
FredBGG
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« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2013, 02:57:24 PM »
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Are you a mycologist?


You know perfectly well I'm not a mycologist. I'm a professional photographer.

Simply sharing my knowledge.
Before going into photography my three chosen subjects were Chemistry, Biology and Physics.
But it's from a rather unfortunate personal experience that lead me learn what I could on mold.
When I was 5 I had tuberculosis that severely damaged my lungs, in particular my left lung
and to the point of deforming my ribs and sternum. It took many years to recover.
Being very careful of molds. particulate and various respiratory bugs I'm glad to say that despite my
limited lung capacity I still mountain bike and kitesurf.

Well anyway you remind me of the bullies in school that liked to chase me and watch me drop.
A real pain being 6'4" and have shot lungs.... the bullie always like to prove they can beat up the big guy.

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FredBGG
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« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2013, 03:06:35 PM »
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Scientists and mathematicians are creative people. I mean: real scientists and real mathematicians.

Two posts in a row.... charming
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2013, 03:08:59 PM »
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Hi!

You perhaps don't realize, but the MFD forum is a gear forum. It is under equipment & techniques. If a poster asks if he should spent his hard earned money on a pre owned MF equipment possibly bought on EBay or a brand new DSLR with warranty I certainly think that question deserves a serious answer.

As I see it, there is a significant risk in buying pre owned equipment. Buying from a reliable dealer, like CI or DT reduces that risk, and I actually think that CI and DT do give good advice.

One of the interesting facts is that that there is a lot of talk, but I have seen very little images comparing up to date DSLRs with MFDBs. I have seen a few posted Marc McCalmont and Tim Ashley and the famous comparison by Alex Koskolov (which I happen to believe is quite good). Miles Hecker, who owns a Pentax 645D has made some good comparisons and of course the test published by Lloyd Chambers. Can you come up with more?

Best regards
Erik



Perhaps because there was no MTF chart in your reply...? Smiley

+1.  In my opinion the gear forum (or perhaps a new dedicated forum) would be more appropriate.
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jerome_m
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« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2013, 03:27:35 PM »
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You know perfectly well I'm not a mycologist. I'm a professional photographer.

No, I don't. I don't know you personally, I don't know the members of this forum I joined a few days ago and I did not know you were a professional photographer. Are members supposed to be professional photographers on this forum? If such is the case, I will have to cancel my account because I am not one.

If you feel offended by my question, please accept my apologies. It was not in my intention to remind you of your illness or bullies you met in school and I am sincerely sorry of that.
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MrSmith
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« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2013, 03:39:16 PM »
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Scientists and mathematicians are creative people. I mean: real scientists and real mathematicians.

Doesn't make them visually aware though does it?
And I'm not talking about looking at the corners of brick wall images or test charts either.
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jerome_m
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« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2013, 03:54:56 PM »
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Doesn't make them visually aware though does it?
And I'm not talking about looking at the corners of brick wall images or test charts either.

I edited the comment your responded to, so as to better explain myself. But you are asking an interesting question. Remember: the post was about "scientist and mathematicians". Don't you think that a mathematician specialised in geometry or topology is "visually aware"?
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TMARK
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« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2013, 04:08:23 PM »
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As an aside regarding fungus on the H3 series IR sensor, this was fairly common, or at least several people I know had this issue with their H3s and Fotocare was aware of the issue.  Blad repaired them for free at the time, when they were still under warranty, so i don't think its an issue of how the camera was cared for in its previous life.
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JV
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« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2013, 04:27:32 PM »
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You perhaps don't realize, but the MFD forum is a gear forum. It is under equipment & techniques.

I should have been more specific.  I meant the Cameras, Lenses and Shooting Gear forum here on LuLa or perhaps a new dedicated forum.

If a poster asks if he should spent his hard earned money on a pre owned MF equipment possibly bought on EBay or a brand new DSLR with warranty I certainly think that question deserves a serious answer.

I don't disagree but almost every other thread recently has resulted in a D800 vs MFDB discussion.  You make it sound as if it is the first time the question is being asked.

...  I have seen very little images comparing up to date DSLRs with MFDBs ... Can you come up with more?

No, but I am basically not interested either.  I shoot a Rolleiflex Hy6 (film) and a Hasselblad H4x (P30+) and I love both shooting experiences.

Whether they are better than a D800 or not will certainly not keep me awake at night.  
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erstwhile
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« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2013, 04:29:46 PM »
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Great write-up, Erik. Thanks.

Hi,

I tried to do some kind of drill down regarding MF compared to full frame DSLRs. The article has been checked by several person who has been there and done that (two of them owning both Nikon D800E and Phase One IQ 180) and also by Tim Parkin. It is not based on own experience but on samples, measurements and sample data. All images were used by the permission of the authors.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts

I don't think you find anything sensational.

Personally, I would probably go the Nikon way. You can buy a D800 and a few top of the line Zeiss lenses for the fraction of the cost of  an MFDB.

If you go for an MFDB, it may be worthwhile to visit one of the leading dealers like DT or CI, they can help you if things don't work out as expected.

Best regards
Erik


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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2013, 04:39:39 PM »
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Hi,

Thanks for good comments! I may add some of my own:

For my part I don't deny the advantages of a larger sensor. I have written a lengthy analysis on the issue: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/71-mf-digital-myths-or-facts, admittedly on the basis of contributed images.

Regarding sensor size, I shoot both APS-C and full frame DSLR and I normally carry both. Why? Because sometimes APS-C is better. If you shoot telephoto it is better to shoot 24 MP APS-C than shoot 24MP full frame and crop to 10MP. APS-C also gives more depth of field. Autumn 2012 I was shooting some autumn leaves, and it was quite windy. It was at dusk, so I wanted to keep shutter speed up and aperture down. I started shooting with my Sony Alpha 900 and 70-300/4.5-5.6 but had problems with DoF and shutter speed.

So I switched to my Sony Alpha 55. With that camera I could use live view for pin point focus and also use the faster and better 24-70/2.8 lens. Because of lower readout noise I could notch up ISO to 400. When processing the images and printing both in A2, I decided that the APS-C image was going on the wall. Mostly because the better DoF.

Everything being equal, I would expect a larger sensor to have an advantage. But, everything is not equal.

Normally, I have two full frames and an APS-C in my back. Why two full frames? It is convenient to have one for the 24-70 and one for the 70-400.

One nice feature of DSLRs is that they can shoot video. I often combine stills and video in my presentations. Don't have a good sample of a presentation but here is some video: https://vimeo.com/user13834009/review/52012348/534f46deb5

This is a small presentation of video/stills from a wildfire in Yellowstone. Unfortunately it's not shot on tripod. I sort of felt I shouldn't stand there...
https://vimeo.com/user13834009/review/50739392/87d00d86d9

Best regards
Erik


Please add me. Willow (post 190) is just fine. I've seen some posts here and there, requesting info for this dslr or that dmfc that have more the scent of just being provocative than anything else. I won't say, so please don't ask me.
I decided for the time being not to make the jump to DMF for various reasons. My professional work is not much these days. My portrait work is about zero. I'm mostly into the real estate business for now. Photography still is my main passion and hobby. Everything I do, I do just fine (an understatement) with my EOS system. I lurk here almost everyday and once in a while I post. I enjoy reading both parts of this feud because is very informative and why not, entertaining. Ok, sometimes it is irritating.
Since dslrs gain grounds every year, it helps me feel better about not having a DMF rig which I truly believe, its the pinnacle of image quality and rapport. It's limitations and shortcomings as well as the ridiculous prices are another thing. For sheer image quality this is it. Accept it.
If we deny the advantages (IQ wise) of a bigger MF sensor over a 35mm sensor, then we can all the deny the advantages of the 35mm sensor over the APS sensor. We can also deny the advantages of APS over M43 and so on.
Things to do:
Let's all get a Canon or Nikon point&shoot, sell all other rigs and be happy forever.
or
Try a little more love to thy neighbor.

Eduardo
 

« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 05:02:52 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

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