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Author Topic: building a profile for black and white Z3200  (Read 1597 times)
MonsterBaby
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« on: January 31, 2013, 04:45:30 PM »
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i am currently printing some large black and white portraits on a baryta..

and i am still not satisfied with some transitions from light to dark as there is some banding. the file is in sRGB with neutral values.

i built a profile with onyx and tried different kinds of GCR and UCR. built a profile with EFI using only gray and black..

i printed the 4096 atkinson chart.. and tried profile makers settings and APS.

the best result i finally got using the TC9.18 chart from HP and the APS engine... using the embedded web server (better than qimage)

but still.. there are some steps..

are there any special "references" for patches to use with colorport f.e. to get smoother transitions for BW ?

thnx
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digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 05:19:43 PM »
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You could try this:

http://www.i1upgrades.com/2011/08/how-to-use-the-tc-2502-gray-optimization-chart/

But it's really intended to optimize a profile using i1Profiler's optimization mode and it does help with B&W.
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Andrew Rodney
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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2013, 06:25:55 PM »
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thnx. looks very insteresting.. not sure if i can use that.. cuz about the only thing i dont have.. is the new i1profiler..

i have an old EFI optimization tool.. i will check that
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aaronchan
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2013, 09:29:57 PM »
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Use B&W print mode in Z3200
then use QTR to make a profile for better linearization.

aaron
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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 12:15:18 PM »
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ok. but i didnt see how to use QTR profiles?
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aaronchan
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 12:53:09 PM »
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Use B&W mode to print out a 21 steps target in no color management mode,
then scan it with the i1pro,
make a RGB ICC with QTR script.
After that, you can print the image in that profile with photoshop color managed in B&W mode.


aaron
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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 05:21:26 PM »
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well thanx again for your help.. but to me u are speeking in myths!

i am not familiar with QTR as it is epson only.. so i dont know how to get that script
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aaronchan
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 02:27:47 AM »
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well thanx again for your help.. but to me u are speeking in myths!

i am not familiar with QTR as it is epson only.. so i dont know how to get that script

Once you installed QTR, everything will be in your QuadtoneRIP folder.
Like what I said, first, print out a 21step target with no color management.
Then scan it with a spectro, let say i1pro, with MeasureTool. ( you can download measuretool from xrite.com and you don't need a dongle to do the measure.)
save the measurement in txt format.
drag the txt file onto the script which is call "QTR-Create-ICC-RGB" located in QuadtoneRIP folder.
Then it will generate a analyze txt file and an ICC profile on your desktop.
Relocate your ICC profile to your profile folder.
Then you will see the ICC in your Photoshop.

Since we are not actually using the program to drive any printer, so yes, you are right, QTR is for Epson printers only, but that doesn't matter, we are just using part of it.

aaron
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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 02:25:15 PM »
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ok. thnx for that manual! i got it now..

that means. i have to buy the program though, right?

and you tell me... a profile made from a 21step grayscale is better than a profile made from 2000 patches? hard to believe...
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 02:58:17 AM »
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The Z's own calibration uses 16 patches per MK, PK, Grey, Light Grey ink that should create the "linearised" B&W output, HP's partitioning scheme + curves for the inks is a black box though. More linear in the Z3100 than in the Z3200 in my experience. The 48 to 36 patches basics for the different media presets will not all be used either after the partitioning step. Not more than 60% is used I estimate when if I think how QTR does that part, so the characterisation ends with 29 to 22 steps actually used.

Based on a printer that only uses its neutral B&W inks in B&W mode the 21 QTR patches have to represent the "linearised" character in the created profile and some deviations on the a b for the soft proof, nothing more. QTR provides a 51 patch target as well if you think it can be improved that way but usually it does not improve the result, mainly curve fitting that goes wrong on the shorter intervals. I made a custom 34 step target as a compromise.

Remember that color toning in the B&W mode of the HP driver will not be represented in the profile and with heavy color toning the dynamic range will change as well compared to what the profile represents. If you go that route you will need different custom profiles that are only usable for specific color toning settings. I do not use color toning in B&W mode anymore but go by the profiled color mode printing for that kind of prints. On the Z3200 as there is little difference in Dmax on my printer between color mode and B&W mode. The Z's add very little color to a neutral B&W print, even in color mode. Here a neutral B&W print is done on the Z3100, better Dmax still and with a QTR custom B&W profile.

With the right target design it should be possible to get the QTR measurements on the Z spectrometer itself and the measurements exported to the QTR profile creator app. I must have been on that route some years ago but with an extra Eye1 Pro at hand and so little patches to measure I'm not investing time in that again.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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TylerB
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 05:17:34 PM »
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qtr profiles are only for luminosity.. no need for thousands of patches required for large 3 dimensional spaces.. still 21 is slim, unless the setup is already fairly problem free from white to black. There are also 51 patch options in the install, and many of us make larger custom qtr charts as well. You may like to search here-
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/
Tyler
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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 03:03:36 AM »
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thnx guys.
i dont really understand ernst's answer in concern of my question.

right now its not about toning. i just realized on one big print that i have steps in the soft trasition from mid gray to black. no matter with which software i built the profile.
i tried the 4096 atkinson chart. and the TC9.18 of hp.. last gave me best result with APS. even better then with i1 profiler. still not perfect.

and printing in the B&W mode is the same then in colour mode. i can tell that it puts down a lot of color in the B&W mode, too by the way.. mucho yellow in the black!!
Dmax is 2.4 .. i can live with that!

again my question. i have to buy that QTR program, to use the chart, right?
the first answer about profile optimization with i1profiler.. i realized the chart has 2000 patches.. that seams too much

thanx for the link to the group. i will try that..
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 04:44:25 AM »
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 i just realized on one big print that i have steps in the soft trasition from mid gray to black. no matter with which software i built the profile.
i tried the 4096 atkinson chart. and the TC9.18 of hp.. last gave me best result with APS. even better then with i1 profiler. still not perfect.

and printing in the B&W mode is the same then in colour mode. i can tell that it puts down a lot of color in the B&W mode, too by the way.. mucho yellow in the black!!
Dmax is 2.4 .. i can live with that!

again my question. i have to buy that QTR program, to use the chart, right?
the first answer about profile optimization with i1profiler.. i realized the chart has 2000 patches.. that seams too much

thanx for the link to the group. i will try that..

If you get yellow in the black even in the B&W mode of the HP driver then there is something wrong with your heads, check the calibration targets of the printer itself, polluted grey/black patches in that target means a hardware issue. If they are fine and the HP driver in B&W mode does it wrong check the Advanced Color settings, the slider for yellow may be shifted from neutral. Could affect your color prints too. BTW, use "Printer does color management" in the driver settings for the B&W mode as HP recommends, set AdobeRGB as the expected color space. Load 2.2 gamma greyscale images in the application you print from, Photoshop or Qimage. Do a profile to profile conversion to Gamma 2.2 of that neutral sRGB file you have and save a plain Tiff preferably, no odd color channels or layers interfering . Set the application's color management to "Let print do color management". If you see steps in the grey transitions then calibration is not optimal, calibrate the printer again on that paper. If you see very subtle steps then a custom QTR profile could solve that. The custom QTR profile made you do a profile to profile conversion on the image from Gamma 2.2 to the QTR profile and print that image through the same color management route described above. There should not be yellow in the blacks/shadows, not as a color bias, not as yellow dots seen through a microscope.

If on a Mac you could ask a Mac owner about the process above, its CM is too smart for me and many other users.

If that baryta paper is one that has an OBA component in the paper white and you have a profile creation workflow + hardware that might compensate a cold paper white with some yellow etc to create a neutral greyscale image on a cold paper, you might see yellow/red/magenta dots in the highlights to say 70% black but not in the black. Altogether an unusual approach so a highly unlikely cause too.

What Onyx does in whatever print mode is outside my knowledge and so are the steps you make to get that total profiled.

QTR is shareware. If it does what you like it is worth the price. I paid for it many years ago, hardly use it anymore but for the profile creator and never regret the small sum paid. Other feelings about my Wasatch SoftRip.

My last cents on the subject.


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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.









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MonsterBaby
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 06:14:54 AM »
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thank you.
i cannot see any head problems. the internal quality prints come out fine.
i printed through the browser without qimage or the hp utility driver.
just uploaded the file using black and white mode, sRGB and perceptual. when i watch while printing i see yellow is the first color that is put down.
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abiggs
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2013, 02:23:18 PM »
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I could never get a linear step wedge on my Z3200 no matter what profiling method I used. I use the built-in profiling, APS as well as a 1728 patch target with my iSis hardware. This is using the B&W mode in the printer driver when printing. I ultimately decided to use the color mode when printing for best results, which ended up being easier for me since I split tone my images in Photoshop and want to preserve the same look on paper.

YMMV
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Andy Biggs
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Africa Photo Safaris | Workshops | Fine Art Prints
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